#21 AI, intersectionality, and the future of women in tech

Meg

I think developing and and building culture is personally I feel like it's like one of the most, if not the most important, part of building your business. more than commercial strategy, even product strategy. Because

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

you can't pivot well, you can't learn, you can't iterate well, you You cannot if you do not build a culture of innovation and safety. Like you can't do it. If you all think the same, you won't innovate. You will

Danny

yeah.

Meg

just make the same thing every single time.

Danny

Meg. Hello.

Meg

Hello.

Danny

Twice today. This is excellent. we

Meg

Yes.

Danny

we've only just met each other really today. we were introduced by a mutual friend and yeah, she's just suggested that you'd be a great person to talk to. And in our brief conversation earlier today, she's absolutely right. So I'm really glad that you're here. thanks for coming on the Deeply Human podcast.

Meg

I'm so glad to be here. That's a wonderful podcast from what I've listened to so far.

Danny

No, you're very kind. Yeah, well I you're exactly the kind of person that I wanted to bring into the space because definitely from our conversation, I think you've got quite a few interesting stories and and an interesting journey. Like for people that that won't know you, w can you help ground us in like where where did it all begin for you as a designer? And and just perhaps as well for people who won't know, like you're a founder. You're Mary Poppins of of of Pro what did you say? You said I Mary Poppins of Product. I love it.

Meg

Barry Poffins of product. That's my little tagline.

Danny

you're also like a like a co-founder of a community interest group, which is the product I'm gonna say this right. the female product, yes, the female product lead. Yeah,

Meg

The female product lead. Mm-hmm.

Danny

like and probably some more things as well. Like I I'm only skimming the top, but you you you clearly like created communities, been in communities, and you're also a founder now as well. So I I'd love to hear this journey from from the beginning. Could you could you help us where did where did this all begin for you as a designer? Like where where did you start?

Meg

Yeah, yeah. so I grew up in the US, like you can probably hear from my accent that I'm not from here. but I've lived in the UK for the past fourteen years. I studied graphic design originally, and unlike all of my cohort knew that I was not going to be designing magazines and books probably and was likely gonna do something else. For a while I thought I was gonna be doing like motion graphics or something like that. But I ended up in digital design work and have been called so many different things, like a web designer, an interaction designer, product designer, UX designer, interaction. Did I say interaction designer?

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Meg

what else? Graphic designer, brand designer. I like I've been called so many different things. and in the end spent a fair amount of years working in product design and sort of like being pu pure product pure product design for a number of years. and I think I always was a little bit more sort of like interested in UX and UX research and like the people side of design, like connecting with users and like really bringing that to life and also the people side of design operations and what it means to work well with engineering and brand and marketing and product marketing and you know all these other disciplines and like what makes a good team and like team dynamic and how do you bring a product to life and be successful as a as a business. So I think that was a very natural progression for me to sort of start doing product strategy.

Danny

You you started in probably like a like what I would almost call like proper design in the sense that you were doing something physical and like I I think I read on something Yeah. Grassroots stuff. Yeah, like spray spray mounts and you know like this is this is like how it was done you know.

Meg

yeah, like pure like like typography and like you know, like a real like graphic design program was what I yeah. Very yes. Scalpels and scream out and yeah, very much that was my

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

design upbringing. I was raised in a family of artists. My dad is also an illustrator and a designer. my grandmother is a painter, like I have real like design. background I would say. so that's like where I came from. But I think at some point and I don't believe that anyone ever really stops being a designer, but at some point I didn't really fit the mold anymore.

Danny

Yeah. What what recently or or when you started out?

Meg

well, I think there's we were talking about this earlier, but I think you know, being neurodivergent I always but not knowing, like I always really felt like I didn't fit in just generally in life. And even when I went to design school I felt like I was like slower or I thought about things more differently or I wanted to do like the technical part, but I wasn't always like there there was a lot of design sense stuff like felt really fluffy to me and not real enough. And I wanted real rules. I wanted there to be science behind design. And so graphic design program, like old school graphic design program where you're kind of there are rules obviously there's just stall theory and all sorts of other actual rules. But there was a lot of like this just doesn't feel right. Like, you know you have or you either have it or you don't, you know, and it's like, you know, I didn't like that. I felt like

Danny

Subjectivity. Yeah. Yeah.

Meg

design shouldn't feel like that. Like there should be there should be a reason. There should be a rule behind these things. And I wanted to understand what those rules were. And now I do believe that there probably are more theoretical rules that I could have learned about in terms of ty you know, typography

Danny

It's

Meg

and stuff. But I didn't really want to learn about typography anymore,

Danny

Ha ha ha.

Meg

I think at some point. but yeah.

Danny

It's it's stressful. I I can I can you you're helping me remember like my first my f I think my first like design job, like I was doing web pages, STA travel. And I we have to do we have to do the design, so we get given a word document, do we have to do the visual design and then code it in HTML and CSS and then you know like we I you have four hours to do that. And you'd have to show you have to sho you have to show you have to do the mobile design, it was just desktop. And then I'd show, like, I guess, you know, the project manager. And yeah, she'd sometimes look at it and just go, Yeah, just not really feeling it, you know. And it was so stressful because the critique was was with there

Meg

So so subjective.

Danny

was no constructive criticism. It was just I don't like it, I'm not feeling it, it doesn't feel very us or womph or like really vague terms. I found it so stressful. And it's my first job, you

Meg

Yeah.

Danny

know, and it it like I'm thinking about what you were saying about rules and and clarity and guidance and and in that early subjective world.

Meg

And there was favoritism. Yeah, there was favoritism and there it was old school graphic design teachers that were like ancient of days and like you know, they'd

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

been in New York like in the ad scene and they'd just walk up to your boards and like be like, no, no, no, no, no, you know, like throw them on the ground, like kind of that kind of stuff, like and

Danny

Really. Yeah.

Meg

I think to some degree, like I mean, they were amazing instructors and they were amazing and are amazing designers, but that doesn't really help anyone learn and there will be people that c get cut out of those processes and believe that they're not designers and they're not good at designing when actually there's a world of design that's like much, much bigger than that. Much bigger than how

Danny

Mm, yeah, yeah.

Meg

those people like defined it. And it was when I kind of like threw out the definitions that I was getting from that instructor and sort of like realigned myself with another faculty member and like built my whole I did this crazy project for my final project at in my undergrad that was like actually now thinking about it it's not weird at all but it was called Common Threads and it was this installation art piece that like involved 20 women who didn't ever meet each other during the whole project. I did like a documentary film about all of their experiences, be what being a woman means to them. And then they wove threads in this huge like woven thing on the ground with these pegs. Like it was so beautiful and so meaningful and not graphic design. Like like really not graphic design at all. But like it

Danny

Yeah, yeah.

Meg

was me. It was what I wanted to bring to the world. Like because I care about empathy and connection and like bringing voices and and stories to life. And I knew that something that like represented, like physically represented those connections was going to bring seemingly unrelated people together in a really unique way that only art can.

Danny

It there's d there's something that strikes me about that and and it's chiming in with the conversation we had earlier, like to to create something like what you just described, like you're gonna have to be drawing on something very intimate and personal in i as a part of you to be able to express in that way and to be able to, you know, create something. And then you find yourself in these enterprises and corporate environments. And you've got this spirit in you that can be creative and wondrous and imaginative. And now it's kind of going in, I think you worked like places like G healthcare and software center and stuff like that. Like how how how does that make meet this world that you started? I mean,

Meg

Corporate. Yeah.

Danny

we must be talking like your early 20s and stuff. Like how how how did the two intersect? Like, how did you how did you manage that?

Meg

Well, I mean I think at first obviously I was very young and I was like, I don't know what I don't know, you know, like and I have to build a career and my first job was at a startup and they paid me literally like so it's so embarrassing how little they paid me for my

Danny

Yeah, yeah.

Meg

first job out of university and they didn't give me any health care and it was like these three guys in a warehouse. Anyways, ridiculous. They are actually like a humongous business now, which is funny.

Danny

I really, really.

Meg

But yeah, it happens sometimes. Startups actually like grow really big. Yeah.

Danny

They actually they do go up, yeah. Yeah.

Meg

but like when I got the job at GE, it was like such a jump up from that weird startup. And then they kind of introduced me to like, hey, there's other kinds of design. There's like service design and interaction design and like there's UX research and like I worked with an academic researcher and I was just getting exposure to what a big design team can look like and like

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

what all these different disciplines were. and I think the theme I would bring up in my early career and actually like for the majority of my career is like I want to solve like real human problems and which are often like quite complex, like what other people might call like boring. But

Danny

Ha ha ha.

Meg

I think of them as like the stuff, the real stuff of life that is hard, like using a banking app or

Danny

Mm.

Meg

going to hospital. or interacting with your school software or like a back office software that helps you do your job, like they feel like really like from a design, like a pure design standpoint, maybe the interface isn't very exciting. Maybe you don't have the resources to build like something beautiful. But if you can improve someone's actual life, If you can save someone's life, it's actually very exciting to work at GE Healthcare. Because that for me, that's where I found joy and passion for these projects was like I connected with the real human problem and I got curious and excited about I mean, it's not that fun to design like crazy dashboards with like so much data that they don't even fit on the screen. But if you know that if you design that dashboard well enough, a doctor might make a decision that might save someone's life, you it suddenly

Danny

Mm.

Meg

becomes very important what you're working on in a very

Danny

Mm, mm, mm.

Meg

real way. So I got very into designing for healthcare actually when I was working for GE and it was super exciting to go to the design center of excellence out in San Francisco 'cause or in San Ramon where it where it was based then. 'Cause I got to do like, you know, futures design and like work on what it would what like digital imaging should look like in like ten years and imagine what that

Danny

Wow, yeah.

Meg

looks like for GE and then they right would go and on to do further research and develop that stuff. And I worked with like frog design to to utilize their new this was when design systems were brand new. It

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

was a it does the one of the first design systems ever made was made for GE by Frog.

Danny

Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Meg

And I got to test it out in my project, which was really cool. But yeah, that's like sounds like boring, but maybe wasn't boring actually.

Danny

Wow. So so in terms of your No, I mean in in terms of your like values and in terms of your like designer spirit, like at the moment it from that point in your career, it sounds like things are still flowing and things are still working for you. Like did you have Yeah,

Meg

I was just exploring, yeah.

Danny

like you're sort of finding out and and exploring like ha was there a point later on like where those values that you started to understand that you had were beginning to clash with those corporate environments that you're in and you're thinking, like, what am I doing? Like, did that happen for you?

Meg

Yeah, I think in a couple of different jobs. especially this also happened for me like almost like interpersonally. It was and again, it's hard to like decouple this totally from my neurodivergence, but I think I didn't always fit in to to team environments and would struggle when decisions didn't make sense anymore for Like or they like ha I felt like cognitive dissonance with like, well, this is the user we're trying to serve, this is the problem we're trying to solve, like why would you make that decision? And I didn't really like care so much about hierarchy or like role definition. Like I stopped really caring about that. Like I don't know if I ever really cared enough about it. except for maybe when I was like very early in my career. And as that clash became more and I became like maybe I maybe my actual leveling like got you know higher in the in the team as well. that didn't drive with people who wanted

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

to like wanted what they wanted, right? And a lot of decisions are made based off of politics.

Danny

Yeah, yeah.

Meg

and not based off of like real user needs and that just didn't feel good anymore to my system because I could only do good work and I could only get myself to like care about my work when it was based on like real connection to user problems, like I was saying. So

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

when that started to clash and I was not in control of the decisions and I couldn't influence them because maybe maybe my communication skills were lacking or Maybe people just didn't like how I was saying things because I was very direct or American or autistic or ADHD or I interrupt with them too much or whatever it was. Like

Danny

Yeah, yeah.

Meg

those that combination, that cocktail meant that I got frustrated enough that I just couldn't stay in the job. So sometimes I would just be like, Okay, I'm out, can't do this one anymore, like next next

Danny

It's it's

Meg

job.

Danny

yeah, I mean you you're putting in my view, you're you're putting a lot on yourself there. But I also think like there are some teams that can handle diversity. They can handle different views, they can handle complexity of challenge, you know? I've been in teams where You know, I've I've people have had a quiet word with me to stop saying negative things in retros. You know, it's like, what? You know, because 'cause it's bringing people down and it's like, what? It's a retro

Meg

This is the purpose of a retro, like what?

Danny

though, you know, like what? And and and what I've seen is that some especially with consulting, like where you get to see loads of different we were talking earlier like having hundreds of jobs you know you you kind of get to see like those different environments and I I've noticed like it's something I I don't know what you think about this but like I I tend to notice like what what what is the nature of the relationships in this in this system that I'm in. And one of the examples I always think of I was at a design agency in in Bristol a while ago and my first meeting into a new team There's no hello. There's no, this is Danny. No introductions. Just immediately a screen share comes up with an with a s a spreadsheet on it. And the project manager is just going through row by row and then just calls my name out. It's like, yeah, yeah, Danny, so yeah, you and he's got camera off. you you're gonna need to like deliver this by this day. Like that's my first meeting in in the team, you know, and it's just kind of like, what is what is gonna happen if we're gonna start disagreeing with each other, if that's how we meet each other, you know, and I I think about your example of you know, struggling in some way to to to be able to challenge and stuff. And maybe it's like maybe it is on us and maybe it's also on the team, the culture, the leadership that was cultivating that. D do y do you know what I mean?

Meg

Absolutely. I think developing and and building culture is personally I feel like it's like one of the most, if not the most important, part of building your business. Like more than commercial strategy, even product strategy. Because

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

you can't pivot well, you can't learn, you can't iterate well, you You cannot if you do not build a culture of innovation and safety. Like you can't do it. And listen, like I don't I'm not like a specialist in psychological safety or something, but I will I will say that there have been rare teams and rare times when I felt truly psychologically safe enough. as a junior, especially. I think as I became like as I moved into leadership, it was helpful because I could then foster and create those spaces for myself and for my teammates and and foster relationships, professional relationships that were not they could be friendships, but they don't have to be friendships. But they were relationships that were respectful and the mutual respect required to be able to actually drive a diverse way of thinking. Like you you can't innovate if you don't have diverse thinking. I would argue that that is like fundamentally true. If you all

Danny

Yeah, yeah, if it's a modern culture. Yeah.

Meg

think the same, you won't innovate. You will

Danny

Yeah, yeah.

Meg

just make the same thing every single time.

Danny

Yeah, that's so interesting. And I think yeah, I've and I've seen that. I've seen that in a lot of I I kind of call it like like the antibodies of innovation when if if you as somebody who's challenging things say, like why why are we doing this? Like wouldn't it be better if we did it like this and like wha why are we doing like that? And then immediately there's this like that person telling me to not say like negative things in retro, you know, or like kind of mocking or something like that. Like it's all behaviors designed to kind of keep you down keep you down in the box. You know, I mean it's I mean I remember it from school.

Meg

Quiet. Yeah, yeah. Like we like your creativity, but only as so insofar as it like gives us like this like conservatively deterministic outcome where you finish this thing exactly when you're supposed to finish it, exactly in a way that will make this money at this time. Like I I

Danny

Right, yeah. Yeah.

Meg

just that's not innovation. Like I think there's I feel like creating limit limits and boundaries is important for creativity as well. Like having something that's like complete, like open everything, like also is just so broad that people aren't grounded in a goal. But I do think like lots of different kinds of frameworks will work for for different groups.

Danny

Mm.

Meg

It just depends on the group. And yeah, I I

Danny

It's you

Meg

don't know. I think innovation needs to be It it needs to be designed around the people that are there. And I do not believe in T-shape. I believe in like very spiky. Like everyone is spiky. There are

Danny

Interesting.

Meg

there are no T-shapes. Like there are this shape. Like every single team. And this is where I think AI will be interesting. Because I think we will start to move into a world where people will not be like a one role. There'll be like a set of skills and soft skills and someone who's really good at learning might get a job because they're just really good at learning fast. Or they're really good at like critical thinking, you know.

Danny

Yeah, yeah, I'm yeah, yeah, I'm seeing that. Like I I mean my own experience, like I'm like I I don't even know what to call myself. I mean y you know, like service designer, UX, like I you know, I'm I'm making

Meg

Yeah.

Danny

power apps, you know, inside like a government department, so who am I? Like and someone actually said that to me. They're like like what are you? Like Yeah.

Meg

What are you? Yeah, yeah.

Danny

It's like what does it mean? Especially with AI.

Meg

I build products, I don't know, yeah, like design and designer builder. But

Danny

I'm thinking like around this theme of of diversity and like having varied teams and y you've actually put quite a lot of work of in your own time, particularly around the female product lead. Like I I'm really interested to to hear a bit more about that because we're talking about like diversity in terms of behaviours, you know, or maybe maybe neurodiverse types, but there's obviously like the the the gender aspect to this, you know, and and I'm really curious like what what what drew you to working with the female product lead and and it grew to be like perhaps you can just help people like know what it is and and you were talking about like how it's grown and and your your part in it. But I'm curious like why did you get involved in that?

Meg

Yeah, so last year I went to an event in January. I'm trying to remember where it was. Somewhere in central London and I'm not remembering. But it was one of like the three events that they ran. in I think it was at the end of twenty twenty four. So it might have been like either January or December or November or something like that. And I met Bex Yelland, who's the founder of the Female Product Lean at that event. And and I felt what many people who come to our events like feel, which is I went to an event and I felt actually welcome. I felt like actually actual belonging. the conversation was good. But the connection between and the conversations that I had afterwards where people were genuinely like meeting and chatting and connecting and supporting one another was not it was not normal. Like the vibes were super different. And that is that vibe, that is what people say is different about the female product lead. And it has to come through like it feels like it needs to come through in all of our programming. And and I'll I'll tell you, so our mission at the female product lead, our vision is inclusive product leadership, product and tech leadership. And it is, you know, it's the name speaks to like women in product and tech, but I think it's really anyone who comes from an underrepresented group in technology or product like wanting to see a change happen, which is that like you look in any leadership team and whether that's design or product or engineering, and any leadership team and it's gonna be white men. Like it's just white men. So hetero white

Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

Meg

men like across the board still. And it's not really changed. Not really. Not in a fundamental way during the nearly twenty years that I've been working in tech. And

Danny

Wow.

Meg

like so I'm thinking I'm just done with that and I was sort of done feeling like I like had to fight for the right and even with women feeling like I had to fight for the right, you know, like

Danny

Really? wow.

Meg

just not feeling feeling the the glass ceiling for myself and I think being neuro neurodiverse be coming from design into product as well. Like I felt there were there's biases there for sure as well.

Danny

Can can you help me like as a as an outsider to that community in some sense, can can you just like really like visualise it for me? Like like what what kind of glass when we talk about the glass ceiling, like how do you how do you experience the glass ceiling? Like like when when have you noticed it and thought like, wait, what? Like, has that happened?

Meg

Mm.

Danny

Ca can you would you help me understand it?

Meg

Yeah. my manager is always a man. a lot of times it was someone younger than me. I who didn't have kids. Or if they did like it wasn't a big part of the their experience in life and work, like their kids were not. A factor for work for them and career progression. so definitely not having babies was definitely not a thing like that was easy to talk about or think about when to have babies was like a I can never talk about that at work, you know. I was often the only woman in the room. And so It's really like micro behavior is is w how I would like describe it, but it would be talking about topics that were very male or about women in a way that was not respectful, like that has happened, but I don't think that that's always very common. I think it's usually much more passive than that. and it's men promoting the ideas of other men. It's men stealing your idea right after you say it and just saying it and then everyone going, Yeah, yeah, because a man said it. Yeah. I mean that happened loads, right?

Danny

Really, really. Wow.

Meg

luckily I'm just really loud and kind of like

Danny

Yeah, is that the antidote to that sister well, the the temporary antidote.

Meg

I think for me it meant that I got heard, but not always listened to. because

Danny

Right.

Meg

I'm a woman, because I'm American, because I'm direct, because I think in a different way than other people. So I'll I'm often like a like doing critical thinking when it's not welcome or like not expected. So I'll I'll say something like, but what about this, what about this, what about this? And I'm asking questions because For me, that's how I show that I care about what they've made and I'm I'm critically looking at what they've made and what someone's created and thought through and built and asking questions because I want to understand it. I'm curious and I think it's good enough to care about it. Like sorry to swear, but like like I give a shit and so I'm asking critical questions or I'm making

Danny

If you if you didn't care, you would be quiet as a mouse. Yeah.

Meg

I'd just ignore it. Yeah, I'd be like, okay, whatever, like think about something else, you know. But I'm exactly but to others

Danny

That's you engaging. Yeah.

Meg

that often felt like an interrogation, like I was you know, like belittling what they'd done. And if

Danny

Wow. And and

Meg

it was if it was based on if that was based in it the male ego at all, then it was she's just that annoying, like bitchy American. You know, it like that's the vibes that I would get. I never like don't think I can think of very many times when that was like directly what people said. But it was absolutely the vibes that I got. And I definitely got a lot of comments more in feedback sessions, like real manager or like, you know, peer-to-peer feedback, three sixties and all of this, right? Like where it was, you you know, you need to learn how to give feedback better. You need to learn how to like reframe your comments. and I just think whilst I agree that we need to be respectful of each other, if someone has to twist themselves into a new person, like I literally paid for voice coaching

Danny

Really?

Meg

because I had had enough feedback that I was rubbing people the wrong way. Maybe it was because I was American or very direct and it was coming off the wrong way. Like I actually paid a voice coach because I was like, I just need to like somehow fit better into this like British male tech world and I am not which I feel like is so crazy. Like it's just so crazy that I did that, but also

Danny

And this this this must have really affected Jamie, like yeah. Yeah.

Meg

not that crazy either.

Danny

And and I mean this must have really affected it would affect anybody if you're experiencing those those signals that you're getting back, that feedback system that you're getting back that I'm to this, I'm not this, I I need to do this, I need you know, you you said like twist yourself into the shape of someone else. Like the messages I guess to your nervous system and your identity, like that's tiri that sounds really tiring and and really hard to

Meg

It's so tiring.

Danny

h to hold. And then I'm contrasting that in my head with the description you gave of the atmosphere. when you went to the female product lead and it's like the complete antithesis of that. Like it's like acceptance and supportiveness and warmth and you know sisterhood. But from that's kind of what's coming to my head. So it's yeah, it sounds like it that there's definitely like a problem here, you know, like and and it ain't you. You know.

Meg

I think that's yeah, I w No and I you know, I've done up over the past year I've done like a little bit of like core values work. I did this, I did this work with this amazing gal named Rebecca McKay Miller who's she calls herself a brand alchemist. Well I swear it was like a mixture of like brands, personal branding and therapy. 'Cause I cried a lot doing the

Danny

Yeah, yeah.

Meg

work. But over time it's become more clear that Really like the core thing that drives everything that I do is I want people to be able to show up exactly as they are and believe that they can and that they can

Danny

This is

Meg

be just exactly as they are. They are okay and good enough.

Danny

This is why you've made your app, isn't it? This this is this so this is this is a great like thing in now because I'm beginning to build this picture. Like you had this like hard experiences of of kind of like not fitting in and you painted that really well of like feeling and and for different reasons. Some of it's like gender and and bias and you know, like icky, icky stuff and that's kind of not you. But it's sort of like

Meg

Well, and maybe not even them, right? Like there's systems that exist like that are age old and we've all been born into them. We we can't always fight all the systems within the environment where we are. So it's about like how do we create safety within ourselves if we can't find it in the environment that we're in. and everything down to like what kind of jobs you choose to do and how you choose to engage with your work like can be part of creating that safety for yourself, what makes sense for you as an individual. But yeah, I c I kind of came to this female product lead event and was like, my gosh, all these amazing women. They're all doing it and they're all awesome and they're all super different from each other. And like this woman is disabled and This woman is a mom and this woman isn't and this woman is black and this woman you know comes from another country and they're all amazing and they

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

all could lead. All of them. All of them should be leading. Why

Danny

Mm, mm-hmm.

Meg

aren't they? And what do programming and what support do they need to feel so that they believe that they can? Like that is sort of like the thing that drives all of the programming. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny

That's the mission. Yeah, yeah, fantastic. Yeah, it sounds like really, really good work. And I yeah, I I want to I'm glad we're talking about it and I'm glad that, you know, you're you're giving air to it 'cause I I want as more people as possible to hear this. Like men and women, you know, like to to to hear it, right?

Meg

And it's very designer friendly. Like we have a lot of designers actually in our

Danny

Mm.

Meg

in our group. Even though it is called the female product lead, it is like we just did a partnered event with UX Crunch. That was actually so cool. And right along the lines of all of this stuff, we asked the question, is AI actually driving more women and underrepresented groups out of tech and out of tech jobs? and it was such an interesting conversation, such an amazing, diverse panel. It was great. It was this is the kind of stuff that is, you know, those are questions that are not being asked in AI talks on stages, right? Like 'cause it's

Danny

Nine.

Meg

a systemic problem and we're asking, is what role is AI playing in this already existing systemic problem? And is it making it worse? Is it making it better? Is it opening opportunities or closing doors for people who already have so many intersectional barriers? What is the you know, what is the outcome that we what we want to see and how do we all take steps to empower ourselves and other people. And that's for everyone. That's for allies, you know, who want to make a difference and for well, we're all allies. But we're all allies.

Danny

Yeah, yeah. But to be f to be asking questions like that in community, like it's so much more powerful than just feeling it in your bones but just not being able to do anything with it. But be able to just ask those questions with with people that are listening and they bring ideas, like that sounds like a really powerful, powerful space. I

Meg

Yeah, panel like was was people who are doing stuff to actually answer that question, you know, like working with women over fifty and and black women in tech and autistic people, like this is

Danny

Mm.

Meg

this was the panel and yeah, very inspiring for me.

Danny

What I wanna talk about your app, like because I think this this this fits in with with this journey and and this this desire to sort of help people untangle the world a little bit. Can you can you tell me like a little bit about it? 'Cause I I I I tr I tried to download it and I saw there was a waiting list. So I'm gonna put myself on that. But tell me tell me about it. Like what are you up to?

Meg

It is. It's a waiting list still. so Unfold came about because I had a very difficult moment with my ADHD last year when I was like returning to consulting off of a full time role and I was like, Cool, well, you know, turn to tech like I do adult. Like, is there an app for that? like what

Danny

Right, yeah, yeah, that's just what I do.

Meg

what kind of apps exist? and of course, like as an ADHD person, like, I've been marketed lots of apps. so I tried all of them, you know, tried all of the

Danny

Right.

Meg

different apps. Tried every every AI thing that like plugs into your calendar and your notion and like tries to prioritize your stuff and you know, do

Danny

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Meg

lots of stuff for you in the background, agentic, blah, blah, blah. and yeah, they all sucked really bad and like just made the problem worse for me. And I was like, is this really all that's out there? And I I think because of my own personal journey, I knew that it wasn't gonna be. you know, like a new framework wasn't gonna fix my ADHD and actually I do prioritization for a living, right? Like like that's like literally my job as a fractional CPO. I help prioritize. So I knew that actual prioritization and prioritization frameworks were not the problem for me. That's not the reason I was making lists for four hours a day and than like wanting to lie down because I was so exhausted and unable to like get started on anything. it was really more of a nervous system and emotional regulation problem. Like I was having executive dysfunction and then I was getting stuck in a loop that I was unable to get out of because I wasn't focusing at at all on regul self-regulation. So I looked, I was like, okay, well what exists out there that's also looking at the emotional regulation side and the the nervous system regulation side of executive

Danny

I see a C

Meg

dysfunction and there just wasn't anything good

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

that I could find. There were a lot of really cool like productivity apps like that were doing little things that were really cool. Like Finch was fun and there was, you know, like cool timer apps and stuff. And I'm like, hell no, look I don't need another timer. Like I've got timers

Danny

Ha ha

Meg

up the wazoo, I've got notebooks over here and calendaring apps over

Danny

Yeah, okay.

Meg

here. I don't need another AI to put stuff into my calendar. so I started just talking to people. And you know, like any good designer does, like I did lots and lots of user research. I talked to people for probably a good six to nine months before I started building anything, actually. It was very restrained to me.

Danny

That's really restrained of you. I I think even do you know how like us as designers like, you know, it's all well and good, but then when it comes to your own thing, you know, like it kind of goes out the window. Like you make your own website or portfolio, you know, it's like it's a nightmare.

Meg

Yeah, I like really I was like, I wanna do it right. I don't I can't like I have to if I'm actually an inclusive innovation practitioner, I like need to really do it inclusively. Like what do I not know that I'm assuming based on my own experience?

Danny

Mm.

Meg

Like what do I not know? And so I said, All right, let let's get scientific about it, you know? And I designed my all my user research. I designed in a new way. I di I designed flexible user research scripts that were made for neurodivergent people so that they could diverge and like go in different directions and it would be totally

Danny

really?

Meg

fine. And I like elongated the time frames and gave them space and did all these like other accessibility things to like make them more inclusive and easy for people who struggle with being on camera and stuff like that. And you know what? It felt so different actually than anything I'd ever built before. And I felt so good to be learning. before doing. but it's quite scary and it is risky, right? Like you're spending money and time and energy on something for a long while. But it does it did mean that when we did start building this spring, I pretty much knew exactly what we needed to build. And I could I could basically shape an MVP version to take into the alpha program like with a lot of ease. I could let go of like the visual design stuff that I knew actually didn't matter so much and wear my product hat and go like, okay, it's fine, like we're just gonna put it out because we just need to test the chat interface. We just need to test the chat, that it actually r resonates with people, like the wording

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

and the responses and yeah, it was just really

Danny

Is it is it

Meg

different.

Danny

is if I say like something's coming to my head, like listening to you and thinking of that conversation earlier, like is it almost a relief to not be in the straight designer role here and be more in the like product lead role here? Like, is that are you just like appreciating that? And and and being a founder position? No, okay.

Meg

It's not new for me. It's not it's not new. Here's what I will say. It's like being a straddler who's like moved back and forth between like product and design a couple of times across my career, like held roles, like and then just moved back into peer design, then back to peer product, like I learned very quickly that yeah, sometimes it is really nice to just let go of like the detail of design.

Danny

Boxes and arrows.

Meg

Get back to boxes and arrows, exactly. And remember that like it doesn't matter if the product proposition doesn't resonate. Like actually the design it it can be great, but actually if the whole thing as a whole doesn't like map like if it doesn't map to a value exchange that makes sense for the for the customer, then you know, like you c you can't sell an experience just because it's beautiful.

Danny

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meg

Or even good UX, like doesn't matter if the pricing is wrong. Like so monetization monetization strategy became like as important as UX strategy to me. And when as soon as that happened, I think it unlocked for me it unlocked the ability to believe that I could be a founder, right? Like working as a product leader like helped me to believe that I could wear all of those hats and and actually you know, bring dis like this distinctive value as a as a as a business leader that is different than one or the other. So I think being a

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

generalist gen a generalist kind of practitioner is what I maybe could call myself like. I don't know if it will work forever for me, but like I think it made me feel more capable. but yeah, it did help to let go it because I

Danny

Right, yeah, yeah. When

Meg

meant that I could test it and learn.

Danny

when when com when is it coming out? Like when when yeah.

Meg

So I can't like I can't give you a definite date, but I can say this, like we're in the midst of building the beta and in the next like week or two we should know roughly the time frame for when the closed beta will launch, which is gonna be invite only off of the wait list. So if you want to try the app and have the app for life as a as a beta tester, like join the wait list. If

Danny

okay.

Meg

you if you make it into the closed beta, you'll get the app forever. and you'll be part of an amazing set of like the the first users, like our our special first user group, which will be really fun. And then beyond that, like general launch of the app, as long as the closed beta goes well and we can replicate what we've done in the alpha, which, you know, was amazing to to see how the value that people got out of, you know, even such an early like version of the app. if we can replicate it then we'll go we'll go to market soon thereafter. We just have to build some momentum on the wait list and and on our socials, basically. Yeah.

Danny

We'll put we'll put the link we'll put the link in description. And th that this is very exciting. And and there is like a small detail that you are not giving away that you were doing this with your husband. I'm still slightly shocked by this. Like I me and my wife, like she

Meg

Yes, it's not small, but it is

Danny

can't even work in the same room as me, let alone work together, because she's just like, You're on calls all the time. Okay. Yeah.

Meg

We definitely don't work in the same room. PS It is very we can't do that either, even as co-founders. So it is not like kumbaya, believe me. But

Danny

No.

Meg

I think because we have the r the right mix of skills for this particular product and I knew I was gonna be like bugging him to the nth degree as we were building these first versions, he was like, Well, I might as well just join the business now because I'm gonna be working on it anyway. so it's like It it was not in the plans for sure. Like I know

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

other like co-founder couples and it is very complicated and you know, likely we'll we'll do some co founder therapy as well as couples therapy off the back of this, I'm sure. But I think for now it makes a lot of sense and we're having fun making this thing together that we hope can really help people just like us, who are neurodivergent couples and you know, we have neurodivergent kids. There's a lot of neurodivergent challenges in our home. So it is very, it is very like dear to our heart. And the app, I haven't said anything about what the app actually is, but it's basically an AI chat and voice AI experience that helps you process on a daily basis when you experience what what's called like executive the functioning difficulties, which is like commonly called brain fog, or or if you struggle with challenges as like an ADHD, autistic odd ADHD or dyslexia. sick person. And we we hope that by building with those neurotypes and like focusing on making the app accessible to those neurotypes. We're building an app that can be useful to anyone. Like anyone who experiences those challenges, whether they're diagnosed with anything.

Danny

Right.

Meg

Which is a much broader group, I would say, like much broader than just neurodivergent people.

Danny

Yeah, I mean I've I've I mean, being a parent of a neurodivergent child and with autis with autism, it's it's like when I describe it to people, like sometimes they'll go, yeah, my kids like that, you know. Which is really difficult 'cause I get really irritated by that. But I can also see that it's like

Meg

You're like, you don't know.

Danny

Yeah, I'm like your meltdowns are five minutes, mine are like an hour, that's not the same, you know. But it's still like I can still see that there are elements there are shades and elements of of what my son does that are in every child. But it's just that the consequence for us not doing it the way my son likes it i is quite is quite extreme compared to perhaps a neurotypical kid. That's how I'm understanding it. It's like he's kind of the same as other kids, but he his reactions and his ability to to deal with it and the emotional system regulation stuff is way more fragile than perhaps a neurotypical kid. That's that's how I'm understanding it, you know.

Meg

Absolutely. Everyone experience RSD is a great example. Like if you have rejection sensitivity, dysphoria, you're not experiencing something different than what other people experience. Like nobody likes rejection, obviously. Like it's very normal,

Danny

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Meg

like it's a thing. But dysphoria means that when my kids come in and ask for dinner, I might shame spiral because I think I'm a bad mom for like an hour. Which is a disproportionate response to them asking,

Danny

Right, right. Yeah.

Meg

like Hey mom, where's dinner? Like,

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

so I know that that's disproportionate now. And when I can recognize it and process it in myself, means that I don't I don't have a meltdown. I don't react badly with my family. If I can ramp out of those feelings more regulated and and quicker with the right tools, then my whole family will benefit from that. Including

Danny

I'm

Meg

my divergent children. Ha ha.

Danny

I'm smiling because, you know, some of the things you're saying, like when you're saying like I don't have a meltdown, I'm thinking, God, I have meltdowns, you know. you know, and

Meg

It's okay. It's normal. Like we we say it's not normal, but it is normal. Twenty percent of the population is neurodivergent. Twenty percent. One in five. Like

Danny

I I you know, I I I'm just I'm still I'm still like working out what my relationship is with it, you know. I I I I have there's a

Meg

And that's okay.

Danny

part of me that has discomfort about like it seems like everybody says they're ADHD now, you know, like I have that and then I

Meg

Yeah.

Danny

also am like Yeah, but like I really recognize a lot of the symptoms and and the well I don't know symptoms the right word, but the the the the behaviours. I recognize that in myself. But then part of me's like, am I not just Danny? Isn't that just my eccentricity? You know, so I I I still don't quite know where I am with with with like the labels and and the

Meg

Totally.

Danny

and the the pathologizing of it. Do you know do you know what mean?

Meg

I'm the same. Like I don't even know if I'll ever seek diagnosis for autism. I I think I will because I want to learn about my autism, but I am not gonna get medication for it or something. So it what what does it yeah, what does it

Danny

Like you're not broken.

Meg

give me? Well, the what it gives me is like compassion, like self compassion and understanding

Danny

Mm. Mm.

Meg

of my my brain in a way that my parents couldn't have given me because I didn't have the tools and knowledge and it wasn't normal and so they were also afraid of the diagnosis. But if we make it more normal, if we call that normal but different, then

Danny

Yeah.

Meg

then we normalize it in ourselves and that the that self-acceptance, that self-knowledge, that is like it's valuable above all other skills that we could learn in our life, I would say. It's like very huge. It's like probably the main thing I will have hire for as a founder actually is self knowledge. Like over every other like skill or experience. If someone has poor self knowledge, they could be the most experienced person in the world, then I would not want to hire them because it's just so hard to work with someone who doesn't know themselves. They they you can't predict at all how they can't predict how they'll react in certain situations. They can't learn very easily. It's

Danny

You're you're you're just slightly blowing

Meg

Yeah.

Danny

my mind at the moment. I'm just thinking like that's brilliant. Yeah. Like like knowing yourself, you know, as opposed to like knowing the product or knowing your practice, you know, that like knowing yourself, like how how how can you govern yourself, how can you manage yourself,

Meg

Exactly.

Danny

hold yourself in pressure. 'cause it 'cause I guess they ask those questions, don't they? Like, you know, how do you deal with pressure? But it's kind of like that is it's a really sh it's a really crappy question. 'Cause what's anyone gonna say like, I'm

Meg

If it's not practiced, right, like if yeah, if it's not a practiced answer.

Danny

yeah, like I'm quite relaxed or something, but to to be able to put the premise in questions that help people understand help you know if they understand themselves. I could I can see that avenue might yield a lot more fruitful responses in any kind of interview.

Meg

Yeah, 'cause you'll know, like, well, I learn and adapt really well. I'll get stressed out if I don't feel supported. But if I feel supported, I'm super good at pivoting. I can handle change really well and I like you know, I love I love like high energy so I can actually, you know, handle it when things go awry. We have to pivot quickly, like I know that about myself and I could answer that question in that way. But if someone else can't answer that, then they're kind of just guessing or performing. The answer

Danny

You

Meg

to that question? Yeah.

Danny

You said to me that you like would want to like if you knew things were available and if you n almost like if you knew now what if you knew then what you knew now, like you would you might have made different decisions. we were talking

Meg

Yeah.

Danny

about that earlier. And is that part of it? Like if if you understood your own diversity, yourself, if you had understood yourself in a different way when you were younger, that you might have made different decisions in your career. Is is that kind of what you're alluding to?

Meg

Well it's a very philosophical question, so I'll try and like be brief. But I feel like you can't know yourself very well as a young person in terms of like there is life wisdom for sure that happens. But I do think that I didn't see enough examples and I didn't know I didn't feel safe enough in myself. I didn't I wasn't encouraged to know myself. I was more encouraged to be what other people wanted, then I was encouraged to figure out what I wanted and what I who I was throughout my life. Or rather, maybe I just felt the pressure to do that. Maybe it wasn't like a conscious thing that people did. But I think if I had seen more examples of people like me doing something different Starting businesses, deciding to like quit corporate, like do a hybrid role, switch careers at thirty seven. Exactly. Like I'm

Danny

Being a woman in a lead role.

Meg

I'm choosing at like, you know, the point when I'm moving from midway into senior to have a baby. Like if I had known, I wouldn't have felt such apprehension about having those conversations or deciding something different. And Who knows? Maybe I wouldn't have done anything different because yeah, like when you're young, I said this earlier, when you're young, you like see a ladder and you're like, Great, I'll climb it, you know, like that's just how it is. but I don't think it has to be that way. And I do

Danny

Well

Meg

think that like the roles are ch always shifting and changing. I I just want more examples of things that are different to be available to people earlier in their careers. I I wish that I had seen more.

Danny

I think in the spirit of modelling conversations for people who are at a different stage in their career who are maybe younger, like I think this conversation hopefully could be quite helpful for people and I think that's a great point for us to end on. You know, I I I think it's it's really helpful and I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. Great. It's it's been great to talk to you and yeah,

Meg

Yeah. Happy to. Thanks so much, Danny. Sam.

Danny

thanks for coming on.

Meg

Yeah, absolutely. Happy to be here. Love loved it.

Danny

Thanks, big. Awesome.