#17 Be a kind designer | Craig Jamieson

(00:00) Craig

everyone expects us to be like the expert all the time and to have all these strong opinions. And sometimes the best thing you can do is just be the kindest person in the room. You might not have the answers to the problems. You might not know to do something, but you can do it with humility.

(00:13) Danny

Yeah, I.

Hello, Craig. Thank you for coming. This is going to be quite interesting because for me, we have had a little conversation, but we haven’t really met before. on the podcast, I blend it between people that I know and do me favors and people that I haven’t met and that I don’t know and do me favors. So thank you for coming on.

And you’re really welcome. I really like to start this rather than doing some intro that I make up and whatever, but perhaps for people that don’t know you, you could just give some summary of who you are and maybe a little bit about your journey into design and tech.

(01:10) Craig

Sure, no problem. Thanks for having me. I’m Craig Jamson, anybody who doesn’t quite read the title again. But yeah, I would say I’m a creative in the broader sense. Came up artistically. Everybody said you’re an artist, which I never was. But came up that way, went through the school route until I dropped out and then…

(01:17) Danny

Yeah.

(01:38) Craig

at some point decided that I wanted to get into design. So I taught myself and that’s how I got into, at the time, graphic design. And very quickly, I was pre-2000s, so getting my age away, but yeah, I’ve got into it in the time of kind of where the internet was booming and I got really fascinated with websites and

very quickly within less than two years I figured out that I needed to learn how to build websites. So I got into the digital space. I hadn’t done that very long when I got really fascinated with Flash. And so I got pretty much obsessed with it. It’s kind of like I ate, you sleep and breathed ⁓ Flash. so it’s where I kind of got into the internet kind of world.

(02:24) Danny

Yes,

(02:37) Craig

was through networking globally and ⁓ speaking to designers all around the world that were very much into this kind of rich experience that we don’t really have on the internet right now. And so I just got taken by it because pretty much on my own I could design, could code, I could illustrate, animate, I could do everything all in one application.

And it means I wasn’t dependent on anybody and working at the time from South Africa, it was kind of a way that I could get global clients because I didn’t really anybody. I didn’t really need to be anywhere. I could just do work. And as I got recognized, I got more work. And that kind of took me into my career. But after about 10 years of working for myself,

being an independent, I then got into an ad agency through my work. Somebody saw my work and said, I would really love you. It had just been the 2008 crash, so I’d lost all my international clients. And so I was quite open to the idea of, you know, joining an agency or something like that. And I ended up joining Ogilvy as a creative director. And that was like my big transition. I had worked as a creative director before at a small agency.

(03:50) Danny

That time,

(04:04) Craig

As a trial, I hated it, but I ended up working at Ogilvy and that’s where I got into advertising, but very much on the interactive side. So I’ve always been kind of more interactive than I have been traditional, but it meant that I’ve worked on brands that I’d not really had exposure as an independent, but I fell into it. I felt that my education being online, I was very familiar with a lot of the campaigns.

brands and the thinking and the standards and so on that were out there. So I kind of got into that and but the thing is I was very much not going through a transition of getting into leadership and obviously in hindsight I can see that I had a great time being a leader. was I would say fairly good leader but I if I’m honest myself was probably quite a brutal leader quite a hard leader and

(05:01) Danny

and

(05:03) Craig

It was only through leaving and then starting my own agency and then joining a new agency that I matured. And I could look back and go, you know, I’m actually, I’ve got to start being a much better leader. And I read a book called multipliers and it is about not being a dictator, being a genius maker and getting the best out of people. And that just, I had it as an audio book and I listened to it.

hundreds of times, not even once. I’ve done everywhere, every time I went to gym, everything. And it just changed the way I approached being a leader, realizing that my role isn’t anymore to necessarily do the work, but to empower people and to do it in a kind way, because I think even though I had the best intentions before, I’ve done it in quite an arrogant way. I’ve done it in quite a brutal way.

(05:33) Danny

Really?

Yeah, well,

that’s quite, that’s quite, ⁓ that’s quite honest of you to say that, you know, ⁓ to, actually say, to own that yourself and, know, I, I feel like I can relate to that too. Like I feel sometimes I, I look back on my career and there’s a couple of moments from like, I wasn’t very kind, you know, or I was quite like, there was something you said, ⁓ on one of your

video blogs I was watching and you said something about like how and I’m gonna butcher this but it’s sort of like as designers it’s like we sometimes have to like have this like we’re here we’re bringing the clarity we’re the consultant you know this is the way that we own the truth this is this is what’s gonna happen and there’s sort of I’ve felt this tension a lot of like wanting to be authentic but also feeling this need that I have to project this

quite kind of hard edge of like, is like, it’s almost like kind of projecting confidence, but it’s also like a bit arrogant. And I find that tension difficult to because I find that sometimes a bit of that can work with some stakeholders. But then as you allude to like, it can also be a bit unpleasant for people who you might work with.

(07:05) Craig

Go. Yep.

Yeah, I think that it is a fine balancing act because it’s our responsibility to take people on that journey and to take them down a path and give them the guidance because they’re paying us, we’re the professionals. So, you know, we have responsibility to them to be kind of forthright and to not wait for them to tell us what’s going on. We’re the experts in design or branding.

whatever it might be, but at the same time to be kind of sympathetic, not sympathetic but also empathetic, enough to be able to balance that kind of, I always say brutal honesty, we just need to soften it a little because we’ve got to understand that this is not their game and you need to take them on the journey with you. And I think that’s kind of

where my head’s at with a lot of things. I’ve seen people come in and I’ve done it myself where I’m quite cheeky with the way that I do things and I kind of just think everybody knows what I’m talking about. And the reality is, I find it very off-putting going into a room and people are speaking in jargon. And I don’t think that’s a nice way. to learn how to soften who you are, but at the same time, take the lead and in giving the direction that you’re there to give.

(08:36) Danny

Yeah.

Hmm.

(08:48) Craig

is quite a big balancing act. there’s with all things, I remind her, I say to myself daily is like, just do it with kindness, like, you know, and hold that intention every day. You know, there’s a cheeky agency kind of thing that we used to say, which is don’t be a dick. And we used to say that with our colleagues. But the truth is, actually, we’re

(08:51) Danny

Thank

Yeah. Yeah.

(09:19) Craig

It’s actually just as important is our engagement with our clients. You need to, yes, we are the experts, yes, we are the industry pros, whatever it might be. They’re brilliant at what they do. And you’ve got to respect that because, for example, I worked in finance. As annoying as the questions are or the assumptions, because a lot of it assumptions more than anything else, you’ve got to…

think of it and go, these people are experts at money. That’s their kind of field. so, assume that they know what we know is wrong. And it doesn’t make them stupid because they don’t know how to talk the way we talk. Or they might not have the confidence to talk or they might be intimidated by us. We’ve got to figure out a way to…

(09:56) Danny

That’s the main, yeah.

Do you think that

hardness that you talk about, we both are fessing up to embodying that at times and probably witnessing it? I kind of wonder if it comes from that anxiety. actually, when somebody is kind of coming in and being quite, you know, I speak for myself, like, when I’ve had those moments where I’m speaking in that way, part of me is in a bit of a flow state.

But I’m also like a bit disconnected from what’s actually happening in front of me. I might be sort of adrenalized and anxious and feeling that I almost have to like punch the points in to get it over the line, you know, as opposed to being a bit softer in the way that you talk about.

(11:02) Craig

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah,

I hear what you’re saying, but I think you’ll notice it when you’re dealing with clients and there’s a familiarity. You’ll see that there’s less of you in that. So you’re right. There is an anxiety. There’s an anxiety with new people. Quite often you’re representing, I remember with Ogilvy, I was going to pitch something that I hadn’t put together, but I’d been put under pressure that I’ve got to go deliver this and everything. I just didn’t know it. I didn’t believe in it.

(11:15) Danny

Yeah.

(11:36) Craig

And on the way there, I said to my colleague, I would sooner drive this car into a tree right now and fake an accident. That actually go and present this. Now I ended up going fine because I went there and I said, listen, to be honest with you, the ideas we’ve come up with are not great. I don’t really believe in them. And I would take this opportunity to talk to you about what really all the pain points for you. Like what is really the problem you’re trying to solve? Cause the truth is I’ve walked in here not knowing what it is.

(11:53) Danny

Really, you said that?

(12:06) Craig

and not having the competence to deliver that. And I was brutally honest. know, this is a… Now, for whatever reason, charm is a skill that… I don’t know if you can learn charm, because I don’t think I’ve ever learned it. It’s something that I’ve maybe… I don’t know, just from the people in my life or whatever. And in certain scenarios, so for example, on screen, I find it very hard to be somewhat charming. Whereas in person…

(12:33) Danny

Yeah.

(12:35) Craig

There’s a cheeky smile and a body language and whatever, flirtiness that can come across with people and with guys, you know, who are mates. There’s a there’s a different bravado. There’s a different everything. And I think that it’s lost on the online thing. mean, you know, like in kind of person, it’s a little bit better. And so if you can, if you can try and discover that within you and just firstly, I think the thing is to like, just be honest.

(12:51) Danny

Yeah.

(13:05) Craig

and kind of go like, don’t really know, I don’t really understand the problem and I really want to understand the problem and I think that if people see your passion and your commitment and you show that level of integrity and who you are and what you’re doing, then I think that you can do it. But I mean, what you’ve said to me now, I get it, the anxiety of things. I feel it mostly when it’s, don’t know who’s in the room, I don’t know if they see me, I don’t know how much of

(13:30) Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

(13:33) Craig

like what that balance is of explaining something and over explaining it. Representing these big companies, you know, I used to feel an immense pressure when I was younger to have to live up to the reputation of the companies I was working with. But as I don’t know, if you’ve worked with, I’ve worked with some really talented creative directors that were more mature than I was by far.

(13:38) Danny

Yeah, yeah.

(14:03) Craig

And they, there’s like, there’s just a quiet confidence that they’re anaheum to them that I learned from and I got to see and witness. it’s through little acts like that, these little quiet moments where, you know, you’re sweating bullets getting into a presentation so nervous to do a bit of the work and they quietly just, you know, doodling on a piece of paper and so on.

(14:04) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah.

seen it before.

It’s this is this is like not the first rodeo. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I can really relate to that. I can think of there was some creative director I worked with way back in 2009. I can say his name is Simon Parbert. And we used to say, we say the Parbert magic, and he would he would just sort of come in. And he would just sort of look at the wall. And we’d have all our post-its up and

(14:53) Craig

Okay.

(15:00) Danny

and he just kind of go, you know, I just want and he would just sort of say something that nobody had thought of. And it would just sort of put the client at ease, it would put the team at ease. It made you feel like, you know, if I’d say like, if it’s passed the Pabot test, we know we’re in good shape, because he hasn’t spotted anything. He’s framed it in a way that, you know, we hadn’t thought of and now we’re good to go. And I that was really inspiring for me. That was the first time I

I that was my first agency job and that was the first time I saw someone quite good at their game. I was like, well, I hadn’t seen that before. I was quite junior at the time. It was very impressive to watch.

(15:31) Craig

Thank

Yeah.

Yeah, I think

the more seasoned kind of creative directors that I work with, like I said, there’s a quiet confidence and there’s a wisdom to them. And part of it is just allowing people to kind of just be kind of open and vulnerable and so on. And quite often you’ll see, I find most leaders will always show a bit of vulnerability.

(15:54) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah.

(16:15) Craig

quite early and it opens up the conversation for other people, including the clients. Because remember, I think people get clients wrong. I think a lot of the time, especially I’ve learned this in advertising, it’s very different to how I related with people in-house and corporate. But in advertising, you’re dealing with marketing managers that represent these really huge brands and so on. They’ve got targets and so on and they’re under immense pressure.

And so somebody once said to me, you know, the best thing you can ever do is make them look good. So figure out like, you know, how to make them shine. Don’t make it about you. Don’t make it about the agency. Make it about them and whatever. That’s how you get them on your side is because you’re as a partner to them. You’re there to elevate them and make sure that they have a measure of success.

(17:04) Danny

Yeah, yeah.

(17:14) Craig

because that’s going to kind of compound into, this is measure of the work we do together.

(17:24) Danny

I had

that done to me by a very good consultant. I was a client at John Lewis and his clear left came in and it was James Botts and couple of other guys and they did what they told me later was the fadeaway. And it was that sort of thing where they were very present.

(17:36) Craig

beautiful edge.

(17:50) Danny

very giving loads of direction, know, really helping and educating us, you know, we would kind of build a responsive website stuff. And what they slowly did every sprint was just pull back a bit. And so that kind of gave like me and some of the team space to we would start maybe, you know, doing the the playbacks at the end of the sprint, they would do the first couple and then by the third or fourth sprint, you know, me and some of other team were doing some of the playbacks and

And they were just slowly fading back and so that we got to kind of like, it was like a very nice baton handing over, you know, it wasn’t like work where they were there to do it. And we were there to sort of critique it that they were really helping us like own it. And that for me was like a masterclass in, you know, watching good consultancy and good design be, you know, approachable and, you know, very

(18:25) Craig

Sure.

Yeah.

(18:45) Danny

open and accessible as a client. You know, I really took that to heart actually. It’s very impressive to watch.

(18:50) Craig

Yeah,

I mean, I love that. That sounds like I like that there’s a term for it. It’s now branded. It’s like got a story to it. But it’s, you know, my favorite clients and I think it’s something that I love to about working in product is that you can get quite close to a founder. And I think you build that relationship with a founder and you build the comp up. I mean, I remember sitting in a room and thinking like, what am I doing here? I don’t need to be here.

(19:09) Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

(19:21) Craig

because the client knows exactly what they want to do and so on. And they would ask for my opinion, the expert. so they would always, you know, Craig, what do you think? But it’s, yeah, it’s lovely to see, you know, clients that came in and they were quite timid. They had some very clear objectives and they were paying an obscene amount of money and there’s a great enthusiasm to get things done, but…

They’re hesitant and then within a bit of time, there’s this rapport, there’s a confidence in them to know that this is what the team need to be able to move forward. so nobody’s wasting anybody’s time. There’s not just pandering and so on around each other. It’s very clear on what should we do here. I mean, it does what you’ve said, what you described earlier is quite lovely in that

they started giving the direction, but then ultimately you as the client took that and you ran with it and they could just back off. Which I think is cool.

(20:28) Danny

Yeah, yeah. Well,

I think something that I take to heart and I remind myself when I make mistakes, you know, and I think of these people that, you know, I’ve worked with that are really great. you know, it sounds like you definitely acquired quite a lot of experience, but everybody had a moment where they, you don’t get to be that good unless you fail. you know, and I sort of remind myself that, I was talking to my wife about

(20:52) Craig

Sure.

(20:57) Danny

when she was working on a project and having a while and I was just like you don’t get to be good. People that are good have had failures like that’s what made them good you know and if you if everything just went rosy like like you’re gonna crash and burn sooner or later because you just nobody can be that good that you just don’t make a mistake you know or things don’t work out. Was there a moment for you that you think where that happened where you

(21:17) Craig

Yeah.

(21:27) Danny

things didn’t work out the way you wanted particularly and it had like a profound effect for you where you it changed how you what you worked in the future has that ever happened?

(21:37) Craig

⁓ There’s been many failures, both personally and professionally. A lot of it’s the human side of things. find leveraging the systems that we have has always kept me pretty level.

(21:39) Danny

What it?

Yeah.

What do you mean

by that? Leveraging systems. What do you mean by that?

(22:00) Craig

So

it’s, I mean, there’s some truths to design. You know, it’s not art class. It’s not a huge subjective thing. And I think that if you can align yourself to principles and values and systems to work within, it keeps the work pretty steady and constant. Like you can fall back on things and go, well, you know, what’s the rule there? What’s the principle that we’re aspiring to?

(22:28) Danny

There’s

boundaries to test things against. It’s not just completely subjective. There’s something to stress test. Yeah.

(22:31) Craig

Correct, correct. then it’s… Yeah, you remove the subjectivity. And so

I’ve learned to… And I’m not a textbook designer, just so you know, I’m quite a handy man. I didn’t study design. I kind of just fumbled my way through it. And even though I’ve studied many things, ⁓ lots of online courses, I’m just not a very textbook type of person. I don’t live on these…

hard rules with things. But I do know that there’s some systems that like all great designers have leveraged. And so I try and study those and even if I’m not quoting them, I know that I’m grounded in a practice that you can leverage. And so that becomes pretty easy. Where I’ve had to learn so I mean I know that I was

(23:19) Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

(23:28) Craig

expecting people to work at the level that I’d worked when I was working for myself. I expected the standards when I went into agency to be on that level. I mean, it’s quite a firstly, it’s quite an arrogant thing for me to say, because who am I? I’m just, you know, I learned, you know, how to use a computer and and, you know, I have some level of creative talent because my whole life, everybody told me that I was creative and autistic and everything else. But

You know, I’m no better than anybody, but there was a little bit of like, I’ve kind of done this and I’ve done this for over a decade now and you’re inexperienced, whatever. And I needed to see that I was doing that because I was starting to expect of people more than they were ready to give, but that didn’t make them any less. And through now learning to be a little bit softer in my approach and learning how to bring the best out of people, because

I find most people have quite like talents they know about, there’s talents they don’t know about, delusion about talents they think they have. And you’ve got to find like the best in each person and not like blanket lead. Like you can’t just go and say all people are gonna be like of this caliber or they’re gonna be within that caliber, like a certain range. It’s like I’ve met juniors who are phenomenally good illustrators but poor on…

(24:46) Danny

Yeah.

(24:56) Craig

kind of the UI stuff or something. And then I’ve met, you know, high end product designers who are not very good at UX. And so they struggle and a junior can come in and paraphrase UX laws and so on. And so you’ve got to take people for who they are, guess, and work with them.

(25:07) Danny

Yeah, yeah.

(25:22) Craig

And I had to learn to do that, like I didn’t do that. And as a leader, that’s a failure on my part that I had to learn because it’s not that I can’t say I don’t think I’ve left anybody in tears, but I know that I probably could be quite pushy and aspire to something that would be unrealistic.

(25:45) Danny

Well,

you said, I watched on one of your video blogs, you said that it was really interesting that I’ve watched it a couple of times now, but you said something about how, about being the kind designer. And you said how someone might look at you and think that you’re quite bullish and that you’ve got tats and, and you sort of said that that might be how someone might perceive you. And so you could be perceived as being quite an intimidating guy.

(26:03) Craig

.

(26:13) Danny

But then you were saying how actually you feel that, you know, you’re you are actually quite a vulnerable, kind hearted person. But if people maybe just took you on a glance or made a judgment, they might get a totally different idea. Is that was did I I interpret that right?

(26:20) Craig

Correct.

Yeah, yeah,

that’s I mean, so the thing is, I before I started design as a career, I had dropped out of college and I tried every other job under the sun. And one of the things that I did for a while was I worked in a gym and I became a personal trainer. So I’m bigger than most creatives. Now that’s you can’t generalize everybody, but

(26:55) Danny

Basically.

(26:58) Craig

But

the thing is, I’ve got a tougher look and I come from a tough place and I have tough. And so there’s probably, I mean, I’ve had to shed layers of myself over the years, but there’s probably a harshness to me that I didn’t even realize. And so that could have been the first impression. Then there’s the, I’m covered in tattoos, I’ve got a shaved head, I’ve got a stoic.

(27:04) Danny

Yeah.

(27:27) Craig

face and everything, but like you only have to give me a glimmer and like I’ve got a big smile on my face. I’m a tree hugging hippie at the end of the day. like I really am the least competitive person on earth. I’m kind-hearted. At least that’s the intention. I can’t say I’m a bloody judge based on how people see me, but there is a completely different kind of person to what people perceive. And I know that. So for example,

(27:32) Danny

Ha ha.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(27:56) Craig

I was described by clients as the scary guy. was, well, yeah, yeah. worked, when I was at MSC Sochi, I worked for a retail brand, a fashion retail brand. And the client referred to, in fact, the client, one of my colleagues had said, come with me, I need support. This is an important thing, I need some support, whatever. And I said, great, I’ll come with. And then in the,

(28:01) Danny

Really?

(28:25) Craig

response to our presentation, they said to my colleague, you bought the big guy, ⁓ to back you up. And it’s like, the truth is like, no, I’m a big guy. I actually used to feel quite intimidated in those rooms because what do I know about fashion? You know what saying? You’re the experts. You don’t do anything. I’m in awe.

(28:34) Danny

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

(28:53) Craig

of people with other skills and whatever, and while I can have an opinion and I think there’s, pull on the talents I do have in those rooms to try and guide the conversation with people. But I’m intimidated by them. I’m not walking in the room like as this big guy. I don’t think like that. don’t think, I think there’s, I watched a watch recently, I think it’s Marty Supreme, right?

(29:11) Danny

Yeah.

(29:23) Craig

This guy like wanted to attack him and fight him. And he said, what are we gonna do? Like, are we gonna fight like gorillas? And I thought like, I wish I’d had that line in many scenarios because it’s like, that’s the last thing on earth I wanna do. Is to fight with somebody. that’s not why I’m here. Do I believe in what we’re doing? Yes. Am I passionate? Yes. Their passion can be misconstrued. Like it could be like perceived as like,

(29:38) Danny

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

(29:53) Craig

aggression, but it’s not. It’s just deep love for what I do and a little bit of maybe overconfidence in what we’re doing. so, and I actually believe in that. actually believe in it’s our responsibility to be really confident about the stuff we put forward, even when we’re not. When we’re not, need to be vulnerable and be open to say like, I don’t know. And I really want to understand from you. But in other scenarios, like we need to step up.

And we need to really believe in the ideas, otherwise don’t put them forward. How can you put an idea forward if you don’t believe in it? And I know that, I’m South African, we’ve got a certain mannerism. I don’t come from the Cape Town.

(30:21) Danny

Yeah.

I’m glad you said

that. I feel like I can’t say that, it’s there. It’s in the room. Yeah, yeah, it’s true.

(30:38) Craig

No, Yeah,

it’s a general consensus that I’ve picked up from traveling the world is that, you know, we have a bluntness to us. ⁓ You know, I’m obviously I’m half English, half South African, you know, and so I understand my English family who are overly polite and they don’t got the South African side that are quite brutal and the whole thing and I’m somewhere in the middle. So I try to be like

(30:50) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah.

(31:08) Craig

It’s a life now.

(31:09) Danny

That’s interesting. I, yeah, and I could, I can definitely understand. And it sounds like you, have a fair degree of like self-awareness and almost like lightheartedness of like, can not take yourself like too seriously as well is kind of what hearing. I sense there’s like a lot of, you strike me as someone like who has a good awareness of like their own

how they’re perceived by people, but also like your own mental health. Like there’s something you said earlier about how you say to yourself every day, like, I think you said something like, be kind. And how did you cultivate this mental health awareness? Because I’ve been on a journey myself through burnout and some degree of like mental health challenges where I’ve gotten really depressed and where I’ve been…

(31:42) Craig

Yeah.

(32:00) Danny

that overwhelmed a lot. And some of that has taken me into various journeys through therapy, through men’s groups, I do a lot of that. And talking circles and things like that. And working in a lot of them semantic work, too, I do things like that, to try and help me like, ⁓ stay grounded, I think, because I have had moments in my career where I haven’t had those things in place.

And then I’ve been ungrounded at work. And that comes across as talking over people, talking too fast, you know, not necessarily listening and just waiting for my moment to talk and things like that. And I kind of like, God, it’s almost like, not only do I want to be a good person, but actually for my career, I have to look after my mental health because it seeps out like that. And I was just curious, you know, how did you cultivate what

(32:47) Craig

Yeah.

(32:56) Danny

for me appears to be a fairly good level of understanding about yourself. Like, has this been a long journey for you? Like, how have you cultivated that?

(33:05) Craig

Yeah, I think, you know, the way that I was raised, there were a lot of tough scenarios where I had a lot of internal dialogue. I’m very much a loner in a lot of ways. I don’t, that’s not, it’s not true. was the popular kid in school. So it’s mixed, but internally, I can tell you that I had a lot of the dialogue in my own mind and head. And so very early in my,

late teens, early twenties, I became quite spiritually aware and not religious too much. But I’d studied a lot of religion in school, but I found I was gravitating. I think I picked up a book called The Celestine Prophecy. And I think it’s about Jones Redfield. And through that, I identified with a lot of things because it helped me see the world a certain way.

And so I’ve always been on this path of self-improvement, always, from very young age. Now, I’ve neglected that. And quite often, I think I’m doing things for the right reason, and I probably don’t. I think we could justify anything to ourselves. But I can say that in recent years, the most recent years, I… I think I hit my late 30s, and I was deeply depressed. And…

Just life took me on down some really tough paths and I needed to get out of that. And so I started doing a lot of self work. the thing is obviously we’ve come from an era where Instagram was just a self help feed endlessly. But there’s a lot of truth to a lot of that. And I think that I learned what I needed to learn and I developed a lot of tools. And a lot of that’s personal, right? A lot of that is about your personal self, but.

In that, I also realized that, you know, everything is not just about me. It’s not aimed at me. It’s not. It’s quite selfish to kind of think this way and to to take everything on. mean, driving is a good example. Most people drive angry and they they have this like, you know, why are you doing that? And this reaction to things, you know, they constant and a friend once said to me, you know, they’re not trying to attack.

They’re not trying to run you off the road or anything like that. Because I used to be quite vocal when I drove. And then I realized that like they’re not. They’re just trying to get from A to B. The same as in our careers, you know, at the end of the day, no matter what, we can all talk however we want to talk. At end of the day, we really just want to put food on the table. So that’s why I’m not a big fan of awards or people that are like overly competitive or whatever. At the end of the day,

(35:40) Danny

Bye.

(36:02) Craig

We’re just trying to live a life. We’re just trying to put food on the table using the tools we have that were given to us. And so we need to just be a little more patient and kind to one another. And as a leader, obviously the first thing I needed to do was fix myself, which is something that sounds like you’ve gone on that journey of fixing yourself, making yourself a better employee. And I see it as…

(36:26) Danny

Never,

it’s never complete.

(36:29) Craig

That’s the thing, firstly all things like meditation, like yoga, like any of these things is a practice. So you’ve got to practice, you can’t just go, oh I read this book, I’ve learned something, I’m complete. No, you’ve got to like, that’s why I tell you, I remind myself daily. I say, at the very least I tell myself every morning and every night, I’m kind, I’m smart and I’m important, which is something I heard on, I think it’s a movie called Joy. I’m smart.

(36:40) Danny

Yeah, yeah.

Same thing again, you say unkind and smart.

(36:58) Craig

and I’m important. And that’s that conversation with myself, because that’s where I’ve needed the most help. Right? And I used to say that to my son. I used to tell him, like, I used to make him repeat it every night before he went to bed.

(37:12) Danny

watched your video with Dexter. Yeah.

(37:14) Craig

Yeah. So

I just because I have the kindest son in the world, like he’s this complete sweetheart and I wish I could be like him because he’s just so soft and gentle in so many ways. And I know I’ve still got some rough edges, but you know, being kind like that makes you a better colleague, makes you a better leader, makes you a better customer, makes you a better supplier, whatever it is.

(37:21) Danny

It’s a sweet tea.

designer.

(37:44) Craig

So you have to start with you, right? And I think you’ve taken some real ownership there, which is something to be commended, is that you started with yourself because too many people are blaming the world and blaming everything. And it’s like, no, start with you. What are you doing? What are you projecting? How are you behaving? And then based on that, you can start working on that so that you can get a kind of better response from people.

(37:56) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah,

it’s life. It’s a life’s work, isn’t it? Really? I feel like there are times when I feel very close to that and then I let it slip and life gets in the way and I’m making excuses and then I don’t do a morning practice and I’m in a more like negative kind of loop and then I sort of have a bit of slap of a proverbial slap on the face and I’m

(38:13) Craig

Yeah, constantly, constantly.

Sure.

Yeah. Do you meditate?

(38:40) Danny

reminder. Okay, that person.

I do. I’ve no, it’s the short answer. But I have started to cultivate, I’m in therapy at the moment, and we’re talking a lot about self. And I started to learn how to and the idea of self is this sort of thing that is higher or something that is not.

me but it’s sort of, of, some people would call it God, that’s terminology that’s too loaded for me. But there’s just this idea that there is this presence that is always with me. And when I’m struggling, I just visualise self in my head. And I’ve managed to do it whilst my son is screaming, whilst he’s screaming, which keeps me calm.

stops me shouting back, which has been quite a hard journey to do because I was really getting like affected by the screaming. And so I started to, I guess you could call that a meditation, but it’s not in the sense of having an insight timer and doing 10 minutes. I struggled to keep that discipline and doing that.

(39:42) Craig

Mm.

So the reason why I referenced it and I think you’re spot on, firstly in meditation it’s a practice and there’s many forms of that practice. And so for example, a meditation to me can be walking. I can walk really great distances. I don’t even recall walking the distance because I get into a certain flow state. I go to gym and most people go to gym and they have this intensity to them.

(40:08) Danny

Yeah.

(40:24) Craig

I have absolute zen and calm when I’m in the gym, even though I’m pushing pounds of weights. And so it’s, it’s, I do not listen to heavy music or anything. I can actually even block out the gym music and I go into a breathing state and so on. And all of that is just, you know, practicing, trying to get back into that place of calm and

(40:27) Danny

Really? Yeah.

Yeah.

(40:53) Craig

And it sounds like that you’re doing with your son is this looking at yourself and being self aware that way. It sounds like that’s what you’re doing. You’re putting yourself into this thing and you’re just nudging yourself back into place. And that I’ve done proper meditation and through guided meditation, which I’m wondering what the app is. It’s very popular, but

(41:10) Danny

Yeah, it’s grounding. I call it.

insight

timer.

(41:23) Craig

No, it’s something else. I’ll send you a link after. Headspace, there you go. Common. The headspace, headspace taught, I did a lot of it for a while and then I kind of get away from it, gets away from me quite a bit and then I go back to it. But in that, what it taught me is that you’re going to go off. You’re going to start thinking about other things. The practice of meditation is to not stay in the state for five minutes, 10 minutes, an hour a day, whatever.

(41:24) Danny

headspace. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

(41:53) Craig

That’s not the point. The point is to go in there and practice coming back. So when you feel yourself drift, it’s bringing yourself towards yourself. It’s saying, okay, let me focus on my breathing again. Let me remain calm. Calmness is one of the most underrated skills. Yet, I think that, especially, we spoke about leadership and these great creative directors. It’s their calm.

(42:09) Danny

Which I think.

(42:22) Craig

that makes them confident.

(42:25) Danny

Yeah, I really like how you link that back because I guess I was thinking, ⁓ I wonder if people might be thinking, you know, why are we talking about, you know, meditation and, all this kind of stuff. But I think it, I think it is all related because I think something that I’ve become quite passionate about in the industry, the way it’s going at the moment, is that there was this huge drive of what I kind of call like, figmification, and this sort of

focus on people that can knock out Figma designs and very UI focused and all the other skills that are required that I’ve always needed in every job I’ve been in, from understanding people, relating to people, unsticking problems, communicating, running workshops, critical thinking.

all analysis, all those things, and all of that is, you need to be calm to be able to do that. You need to be grounded, you can’t be wired, you can’t be completely adrenalized when you’re doing those things. And so for me, being a good designer is cultivating a lifestyle and a way to be able to stay calm, to be able to be grounded so that when I turn up, you know, on a job, like

not shooting off the wall, you know, I’m kind of able to be present. And that’s, I think it’s that presence is just another word for calm. But it’s like, that’s what makes a component that can make a designer very good, I would suggest.

(43:58) Craig

Yeah, I think very much. mean, there’s obviously a lot of skills that you need to develop, but I think that, you know, when people say like, I want somebody with experience, it’s somebody with that level of calm is a lot of the time what you call because they’re representing your business, the colleagues around them, the industry. They’re doing all of that. Right. And if everybody’s chaotic, I mean, I used to hate the

(44:10) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah.

(44:28) Craig

this perception of, you’re the creative guys. Like there’s a stereotype, because the thing is like, I would definitely say I’m creative. I can’t argue with that, right? I have a very narrow view in a lot of ways. If things don’t interest me, I genuinely don’t put any attention. I don’t give it any energy. And so a lot of my life is very creative. But to stereotype me like that, I don’t like.

Because you know what, I can go to the gym and I will probably outperform most people. I can run. I can fight. I can do all these things that like the creative types aren’t supposed to be capable of doing. You know what saying? So it’s like, no, you’ve got it all wrong. And so we’re all multi-talented. But there is something that no matter what our differences are,

(45:11) Danny

Right, right.

Yeah, yeah.

(45:27) Craig

we all react to the energy around us. And if you come in frantic and whatever, you’re just gonna get more of it. You’re just gonna generate more of it. for a lot of work is in crisis mode. I mean, I’m sure you’ve worked on enough things where you’ve got people outside smoking and energy state, right?

(45:33) Danny

She’s going to get frantic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

More so lately. More so lately. Yeah.

(45:55) Craig

And they come in and I used to say to people like, why are we panicking? We build software. There’s no crisis yet. I understand if it falls over or something like that. But I mean, that’s just a communication thing to say to our clients we’re having some technical issues. And I get the panic that can come from it. But especially as a leader, especially if you’re the person who’s trying to do something like, your panicking is not going to hurt.

(46:04) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(46:24) Craig

solve anything. We’re not running around with a heart in a box. That’s not our role. We build software and we make things pretty and we do content. These are fun things to do. We’re so lucky. we need to just remain calm and be level-headed. Especially if you are leading people. You can’t let junior people see you in this

(46:28) Danny

No, no.

(46:51) Craig

And that’s why I say, in my early career, I was probably more hyper than I probably should have been. And I’ve learned to remain calm. that’s it. And you spoke about your child just now. And what do you want your child to see? What do you want them to be? And they’re a reflection of you. So if you’re panicked and freaking out every time they cry and there’s drama and whatever, they’re going to be like that. You’re just going to trigger them to react.

(46:55) Danny

Yeah, I is something.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

(47:20) Craig

same way as they marry you. if there’s ever

(47:23) Danny

Yeah.

(47:23) Craig

a motivation is to say, Hey, I don’t want my child to behave this way, so I better… And that goes with work, that goes with anything. ⁓

(47:35) Danny

Yeah,

yeah, there’s a certain degree of choice and there’s a certain degree of agency that we have. I completely agree with that. I wanted to move the conversation a little bit towards, there’s some other things that I read that you had talked about that I thought was really interesting about the, you said how there’s a sort of silence in the industry at the moment. Because I think that it’s a really hard, part of the reason I started this podcast was because

I think there’s some real, it’s a really hard time at the moment to be in this industry. You know, we’ve been talking about mental health and that’s really the essence of the podcast is because I just sense that a lot of designers are having a really hard time. they have, whether they’re at the start of their career or even like midway through, you know, it’s like people have created a life and an identity around being a designer. And now suddenly that is kind of very unclear.

And some of the people I’ve talked to on the podcast are making suggestions that, you know, the designer era is over and all this kind of stuff, you know. And there was something that you said about why are people that are employed in the industry, like being silent. And I thought that was really interesting. And I wonder if you could expand on that because yeah.

(48:57) Craig

Yeah, I

mean, what I’ve written is very momentary. So, but I mean, I do believe that, you know, people who are employed are personally in a very good place. You only have to be unemployed to know that. You only have to be struggling to get your next gig, whatever, to really feel quite vulnerable right now. And those who are in the jobs,

(49:02) Danny

Yeah

Yeah, I felt like that a year ago.

(49:26) Craig

are

not doing anything to help their colleagues. I mean, was like, I was speaking to one of my old credit directors yesterday. We were catching up and he was saying that everybody’s just looking after themselves. Nobody’s helping each other out. Now, when I got into this industry, it’s through other people that I networked and I got opportunities and I developed and everything else.

And it seems very quiet. And so the people who seem quite comfortable right now, they don’t seem to be stepping up and saying, look, I’ve got the job security. I’ve got the opportunity to represent myself, our industry, our everything in a certain way and build confidence and everything else with our clients. And so…

Right now the people that I see who are the most vocal are the people who are the most vulnerable. And they’re coming from a place of defensiveness almost and desperation. And those are the biggest voices right now.

(50:34) Danny

Yeah, you see those awful LinkedIn posts of people saying like, you know, I’ve applied to 500 jobs and, you know, I’ve got two months of savings left and like, it’s that kind of stuff, isn’t it? Is that what you’re referring to? That kind of thing.

(50:49) Craig

Yeah, I think that, you know, there was a guy that I followed for a while and luckily he has found some work now and that’s really great. he, I mean, he really, I know it’s wrong to say, but he really mocked the, struggling, it’s messing with my mental health and everything. You know, every post was like that. And I got like a little, like a bit much and a little cringe for me, but it was honest. You he really was struggling and he really was desperate. And for somebody to have to be that vulnerable.

online and not get enough support from people in the industry is, yeah, it’s a scary time because they, you know, are you just protecting your own circle and your own world? Are you just so comfortable? And because it’s not happening to you, it’s, know, do we ignore it? I don’t know what it is, but I don’t feel there’s enough people that are in comfortable positions right now.

because statistically, yeah, I both leadership and I think right now leadership’s in trouble. There’s two ends that I see are in the biggest trouble in our industry right now for designers. It’s the upper end, the over-experienced, right? Big salaries when you’re weighing up and you go, I can use AI or, you know, I can take a senior designer with AI and they’ll be as good as somebody with X.

(51:49) Danny

You’re talking about leadership here, right?

So that’s just like

you and me, but without the side of me, right?

(52:17) Craig

So the thing is, it’s like there’s that kind of top end of things where I feel that there’s probably a bit of pushback against hiring very senior people because there’s an expectation of salary and everything else. And other people are quite intimidated by people with more experience than them. ⁓ Quite a common thing that people are like, you know.

I can’t hire somebody who knows more than me, which is a silly approach because you should always hire people.

(52:49) Danny

Yeah, you just

hire people that better than you, yeah, definitely.

(52:52) Craig

Correct. The other end of the spectrum is, you know, graduates. Graduates have zero experience and they’re having a really tough time. So for me, I know, that’s why I do ADP-less mentorship, that I don’t care. I’m not like only going after, know, graduates, anybody. I don’t care if you’re a senior leader, if you’re a mid-

(53:03) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that.

(53:19) Craig

midway through your career or junior, it doesn’t make a difference to me. If you’re struggling, I’m there and I open up slots so that I can talk to you.

(53:26) Danny

That’s a really practical way that, you know, just to kind of make it quite tangible. Like that is a really simple, practical thing that people who are in leadership positions could do right now. They can go onto ADPList and create an account and just offer half an hour a week, you know, to anybody that needs it, right? That’s just because I, as you were saying it, I was kind of thinking like, what, what can people do to support each other?

(53:46) Craig

Yeah.

(53:53) Danny

And I think that’s a really nice simple example, isn’t it? It doesn’t really cost anything and it’s fairly doable.

(54:00) Craig

That’s one example. Another thing is, often the recruitment thing blows my mind. I don’t know that recruiters are doing the best job and there’s some great recruiters out there, so it’s not an attack on recruiters. I know some great people in the industry, respect to them. But there’s also a lot of people who putting bums in seats has been lucrative and they don’t really know what they’re doing. And I sit and I look and I go, why would I hire

some random person without first consulting my own network to say does anybody recommend anybody? Does anybody know somebody? Like you should not even be thinking about recruitment until you’ve exhausted your own network and your network’s network and everything else because there we all know so many talented people and right now in a struggling industry that

least we can do is support one another. Because our industry is under threat right now. That’s what I’m seeing anyway. From my perspective, it’s what I’m seeing. so my thing is like, why aren’t we saying to each other, does anybody know anybody who can do this? Does anybody know who’s looking for a mid-range designer who’s looking for a full-time gig? You know, do you know any freelancers?

(54:59) Danny

I

Yeah.

(55:23) Craig

That should be happening long before we post immediately.

And no, and I just, think that there’s these little things that we could all be doing to support one another. I think that happened. ⁓

(55:37) Danny

Yeah, that’s really interesting.

What I was just thinking about as well to that is that I found it difficult to reach out to people when I was looking for work. Even though I’ve got a fair amount of experience, I found it awkward to be messaging an old manager or someone I used to work with and be like, do you know if there’s any work going?

I felt like I had to kind of eat a bit of humble pie. And it’s crazy because they all said, yeah, sorry to hear, yeah, no problem. But I got into that scarcity mindset. And I was just out of a contract for, I don’t know, three months, but it was scary. It was the start of last year and it was just like nothing. And I was messaging old people that used to work with, but I felt awkward about it. And that’s in a different role to the one that you’re describing. This is someone looking for.

but like it felt vulnerable. In fact, that is what it did. It felt vulnerable.

(56:41) Craig

I mean, did

you overcome that? Did you discover?

(56:44) Danny

Yeah, I did.

mean, I made a shortlist and I would email the people that I felt safest with first. And then slowly, I started emailing more and more people on my list. I think in the end, coincidentally, someone messaged me that I hadn’t messaged, but the message came from someone that has happened that the people that I get work from, it’s never from the people that I think it’s going to be.

(56:50) Craig

Okay.

(57:09) Danny

I have this thing in my head of, oh, yeah, know, me and so and so had a great relationship, you know, I’ll definitely work with them again, you know, it’s it’s someone that I worked with on a project four years ago, that, you know, I was probably like, barely directly working with them, but they saw me a little bit and remembered something. And then they, you know, message me four years later. That’s how it’s happened for me. But it’s always from people that I

don’t expect, which is totally comes back to your thing of like be kind and don’t be a dick because that’s that’s going to really help you know.

(57:40) Craig

Yeah

So you know, there’s a practice that I’ve tried to put in place in the last 10 years, before I didn’t think about it, now I very much think about it, is leave every room with better than the way you found it. Because even if you don’t directly interact with anybody, you don’t necessarily, you know, engage on that level, people might only see you for a little bit. A warm smile.

(57:58) Danny

Yeah.

(58:13) Craig

a good positive attitude, being complimentary, ⁓ sharing the joy of what we do, I think goes a long way to leaving a reputation behind when you walk out of the room.

(58:23) Danny

I think you’re right, yeah.

I had heard that called the bench test is what somebody called it said to me. He said, I don’t know if you heard of that. If you worked with someone and then they you were sat on a bench in 15 years time, and they saw you but you hadn’t seen them, would they come and sit next to you? Or would they like pretend that they hadn’t seen you and keep walking? And I really stuck with me, you know.

(58:56) Craig

Interesting. it’s, you know, unless and unless I I’ve offended a lot of people because sometimes I think when we get so busy, we sometimes not conscious of what we’re doing. And even though you have the right intentions, you can still forget yourself and you can forget, you know, this what’s the whole thing, the Richard Branson, you know, even the cleaner or the tea lady or whatever it might be.

(59:10) Danny

Yeah.

(59:25) Craig

you should treat them the same way as like the CEO. That’s sort of, I’ve butchered that, but you know, it’s that sort of mentality of, you know, just be kind to everybody, you know, because hopefully they’ll remember you. Even if you didn’t do anything specific with them by reputation, they can go, oh, yeah, he’s a solid bloke. He was lovely, he was warm. You know, I think that, sure, there’s people who don’t know you and judge you or whatever, but for the most part,

(59:29) Danny

Right. ⁓

Yeah.

(59:55) Craig

optimistically believe everybody’s good and has the right intentions. And as such, they shouldn’t be judging you based on presumption. They should judge you based on who you actually are and the engagements you’ve had. And so if somebody is a bit arrogant, a little whatever, and you sit and go, you know, actually, they were quite lovely to me and I would rather form my own opinion than take yours on. until that person is arrogant to whatever towards you,

(1:00:18) Danny

Yeah, yeah.

(1:00:26) Craig

You really shouldn’t judge them that way. You should hold your opinion off. But that reputation is really, really important. think it comes down to how you learn to communicate. I said earlier, there’s the panic people. They have this heightened, they’re on a different frequency.

(1:00:30) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah.

(1:00:55) Craig

And I think if you can lower your frequency and whatever, that kindness comes through and it like leaves a room with a, like I said earlier, a presence that’s warm. You don’t want to be icy. I’ve been told I’m icy sometimes, but it’s usually when I’m in my own head ⁓ and not paying other people attention and I’m trying to solve my own things, which is something I work on all the time. But you should be warm, friendly,

(1:01:22) Danny

I think.

(1:01:24) Craig

and leave, you don’t have to be the expert. know, everyone expects us to be like the expert all the time and to have all these strong opinions. And sometimes the best thing you can do is just be the kindest person in the room. You might not have the answers to the problems. You might not know to do something, but you can do it with humility. ⁓

(1:01:41) Danny

Yeah, I.

I think that,

sorry to interrupt you, just think that’s a really good, I’m trying to draw us to a close and I just think that’s such a good moment to end on, is that kindness and humility and humbleness that you talk about. I feel like that’s, leave the room better than you found it. There’s some really good messages in that. I kind of, I want to keep talking, but I’m also like feeling like that’s a really good point for us to.

(1:01:49) Craig

I’m rattling.

(1:02:15) Danny

to close and to draw it. I just want to say thank you so much for coming and for sharing ⁓ your experience and having a conversation with me. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you, Craig.

(1:02:21) Craig

you

Yeah, thanks for having me. I really appreciate your time.

(1:02:31) Danny

Awesome.