#3 In design it’s all detective work

(00:00) Kirtika

I still think after 15 years and more that people don’t know what they want. They think they have an idea because they don’t know.

you know what UX still is and it is funny because all those companies that you mentioned I’ve gone into very and it’s the same thing it’s amazing how you just go how are we so much into the future that we’re still arguing the same thing there’s value to what we do and it’s a lot of research and you know

you’re basically detectives and you’re trying to find all this stuff.

(00:43) Danny

you. We did it. Thank you so much, Kurti, for coming on. This is so exciting. I’m always a bit nervous for these things. But I shouldn’t be because I know you. We know each other. We

So I know you, Kertie. We go back, I guess, more than 10 years, I think. It’s like John Lewis time, wasn’t it? So it’d be like 2015, 2014, going back that kind of time. I’ve done a little bit of, I’ve reviewed your file and you have…

(01:07) Kirtika

you

Yeah.

My file?

That just sounds like I’m a criminal. ⁓

(01:16) Danny

Yes, I found it on LinkedIn. You’re a criminally excellent designer. I’ll put that in.

So you’ve got over 15 years of experience in UX design strategy, research and accessibility. And you’ve been doing freelance, you’ve done perm, you’ve gone back to freelance, done perm, you’re kind of going around quite a lot, which I think is a really good thing to do, actually. I’ve done that a lot as well. I think that makes people super strong.

⁓ as designers. You were even the former head of UX UI accessibility. That must have been just after I left. That’s super cool. And you’ve worked with lot of big brands like Adidas, Torxport, and Tesco, and lots of big brands. And you’re currently the UX strategy designer and researcher at Tesco technology, they call it, cool testing technology. And you also, knew this, but I’ve been trying to find pictures.

that you sketch and you are a practicing artist and you’ve also had your stuff displayed in some galleries, is that right?

(02:24) Kirtika

Yes.

(02:26) Danny

Yes, you’ve

gone very pixelated. I don’t know if that’s a diagram or a sketch, but I can still hear you. It’s OK. This is how it is. I would love if you can arrange it. I would love to have something I could see of a sketch or one of your like art pieces, because you’ve got one behind you, haven’t you? It’s very pixelated at the moment, so we may not be able to see it yet, but maybe the internet will buffer and then

(02:29) Kirtika

All right.

Thank

I do, yeah. This is, this is just…

(02:55) Danny

it’ll go into sharpness again. But that’s super cool. How do you tell people what you do? Because you do so many things. So someone just meets you on the street and they go, what does Kertie do? How do you explain it?

(03:09) Kirtika

I’ll probably just say I’m a jack of all trades. You know what, whenever I get asked in terms of work what do you do and I’ll always go because it’s so hard to explain you know what I do. The title doesn’t really mean anything but in industry it does.

(03:14) Danny

Yeah. ⁓

(03:35) Kirtika

But when you explain it to someone, just go, look, I look at whatever complex problems there are going on, and I’ll use that information and pattern and research, and then I’ll analyze it.

strategy plan in terms of what to do to make it much more simplified for the users or the business. And that’s how I explain it. And it always changes.

(03:57) Danny

That sounds great. Yeah, because the industry doesn’t like

this kind of thing anymore. They like product designers and product managers. And they don’t really like UI designers, and they definitely don’t like UX consultants. But those are all the things that you’re doing, but it’s just kind of under different names, right?

(04:24) Kirtika

I still think after 15 years and more that people don’t know what they want. They think they have an idea because they don’t know.

you know what UX still is and it is funny because all those companies that you mentioned I’ve gone into very and it’s the same thing it’s amazing how you just go how are we so much into the future that we’re still arguing the same thing there’s value to what we do and it’s a lot of research and you know

you’re basically detectives and you’re trying to find all this stuff. And I firmly believe that processes are in part of this. So it’s not just looking at how the user interacts with something, it’s actually the process behind this. I do a lot of service design as well where I look at what the businesses are in the background, how they’re sort of functioning and talking to them. Because they’re all connected and it all plays a game. ⁓

And I still, just, laugh every time. one of the things is people go, we’re working in a product where I’m like, are we? Cause I don’t think you are. You’ve just got, you’ve latched onto the name. You’ve gone, let’s create this. Let’s create these teams. Let’s get a UX in. But why do you need a UX? What is it that you’re trying to do? So I always do it in that way where I’ll ask the question and go.

(05:46) Danny

We can use.

You’ve

always like, from when I knew you, you’ve been like, someone said this word to me, but I think it might apply to you. I think you’re a bit of a magpie, you know, like collecting different skills and like broadening, you know, like just on your profile, it said you started out as a graphic designer, I think. And then you went into web design and then you went into like the UX and you went to accessibility.

(06:01) Kirtika

You

(06:19) Danny

And I think you can code from memory. Is that right? Yeah, you can code too. you’re, I keep, you’re the second person I’m speaking to. I think you’re like the unicorn they always talk about, right? Cause you can, you can do service design, UX, UI, code. Like that, that’s quite a big, big church of skills there.

(06:22) Kirtika

Yeah.

Exactly and the way that I use that is it actually helps me because I have an understanding of certain sections now. It’s not necessarily that I’m, you know…

let’s say web designer front end, I haven’t kept up to date in terms of what people do, but I talk to designers and I work with them to understand what they sort of are doing and what tools they’re using. So I’m never like not doing that, it’s just I’m a little bit away from it and I’m doing what I like doing, which is the research, the investigating, the talking to people and finding out what to do and then providing advice to them.

I’m so much, I love the Discovery part. This is my, and I, I’ll always think of you, Danny, not you. You are one, you are, have.

(07:37) Danny

Yeah

(07:42) Kirtika

in the one, the only one that went, okay you’re dyslexic and I went what are you talking about? You’re dyslexic and you then sent me on a assessment course which I and I honestly it’s changed me so much because

(07:48) Danny

No.

(08:04) Kirtika

I understand I can see patterns, can, you know, this is why when it comes to discovery, I’m so good at like, analyzing the information, actually seeking out what it is. Even if…

someone says, no, just concentrate on looking at how the user interacts with something. I’ll say no, because it’s all the other parts that sort of touch on it that are important, because it’s not just what the user’s doing, there’s other things that connected to this. So for me, it’s like a jigsaw puzzle, I’m looking at that in that way. ⁓

(08:37) Danny

Yeah,

you know, it’s funny you say jigsaw puzzle because, and just for people listening and watching, like, I can give a little bit of context to I think the story you’re talking about. So when we worked together, I remember we were actually pioneering discovery phases in John Lewis and trying to bring in this idea of having a discovery template. And they were kind of like these decks. And I think I kind of put some headers in it and stuff and said, right, when you get

you start working on a project, like before it really starts, why don’t we spend a couple of weeks like trying to figure it out and stuff like that. And I think I think it’s been done like that before, but not quite with like a template and with like headers and stuff like that. And so it was kind of like a report, I suppose, like in a really like formal dull sense, but they didn’t look that way. They were quite colourful and they had screenshots and stuff. And I remember seeing your one of the things that you used, you produced. And I remember reading it and being like,

(09:23) Kirtika

Yeah.

(09:35) Danny

doesn’t make sense, but I think there’s some really good things in here. And then we would talk and I was like, everything you’re saying, like is really clever.

we talked about it once or twice in the past and I’m like really it’s really hard for me to take like praise like I crave it all the time and then when someone gives it I feel like let’s move on to the next topic you know but I’m so like it’s I’m really I think about it the story you’re telling it’s something I do think about from time to time because

you had told me later that it had like quite a profound effect on you. And what you were just saying there is helping me understand it more how as designers, something that I thought a lot about it. And I say to a lot of people who don’t know anything about UX, I’m like, it’s actually about people. That’s almost what most of it is about is figuring loads of stuff out. And then, and then right at the end,

there’s like some designing that happens where you actually do like, you know, get get get the mouse or touchpad or whatever it is and actually do the thing. But the design begins in those conversations. And from what I’m connecting now is that the some of that work that we did together and some of the support that you had has enabled you to realize that you’re actually really good at all that people stuff of tangling the mess, spotting patterns and stuff like that, which is so

(10:36) Kirtika

Thank

(10:55) Danny

so important, they don’t really teach that stuff in boot camps, I don’t think, you know, they go straight to the Figma, you know, the Miro templates, which shows you how to run a workshop. But what I’m hearing is that you’re really valuing a lot of that stuff that happens before all of that. Is that right?

(11:12) Kirtika

⁓ 100%.

Anything like that complex, I’m there. I love it. I’ll lock that up. If you speak to other UX designers, they’re going to probably disagree, but I always think the actual producing and the building designing is the easier part because the chunk of this work has been done where you’ve gone out, seen if there’s value, all this other stuff, put it all together, then presented that back and gone.

should we now move forward with this in terms of developing etc. And I just feel like that part for me is the part I’m not interested in. I’m more interested in the investigating part.

(11:53) Danny

Well that’s…

That’s diverging.

that’s how I hear it. It’s like diverging is going wide, asking questions, and then converging is like, know, like, and loads of people hate diverging. It’s so funny. I go into like, the stories I’ve had, go to gigs, and everybody’s like, if you ask these broad questions, and like, why are we doing this project? And what are the goals? like, how did it, sometimes it’s like, oh, don’t ask me questions like,

(12:05) Kirtika

I’ve heard that already.

(12:26) Danny

I think we’ve got a solution, let’s just crack on and people feel like this sense of relief when the solution has been kind of described and it’s like, great, we can converge. I find like you converge too quickly and you just don’t know how to do it all over again and it doesn’t really work and doesn’t make any sense. And trying to keep people from converging and making them wait in divergency, I think that’s a real skill. It sounds like that’s what you’re doing.

(12:57) Kirtika

And what you just said, this is why I sigh because I’m like, we’re not the ones at that stage to go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

(13:01) Danny

Yeah, why did you sigh?

(13:23) Kirtika

they’ve got KPIs to do, they’ve got to deliver something, they’ve got to, you know, and it’s already been in a roadmap or something like that. And it’s already, you know, and we’ve got to do it. We’ve now got engineers, we’ve got this, we’ve got that, we’re just going to produce. But I always sigh because I’m like, but if, but what is it that you, do you know what you’re, what you’re doing and what you’re trying to solve and whether or not what you’re doing impacts anything else around it? So.

(13:50) Danny

Mm-hmm.

(13:53) Kirtika

It does take certain types of people to actually keep questioning people like that and I think I saw that from you lot where…

Initially I’m sure people when they look at this they’ll go, I didn’t like Danny, why not? Because he was always like, question, question, question, this, this, this. Whereas I had come from a background web design, you just kind of stay, you just do that design, there it is. And I was bored. But actually when I was working with UXs and actually understanding the athletes that you got, they were just like, ⁓ you’re someone who will push boundaries, you’re someone who will

(14:06) Danny

⁓

(14:33) Kirtika

you know, ask the questions that people probably don’t want to answer because they don’t know why they’re doing certain things. And I was like, that’s what I want to do. That’s way of being creative, yeah.

(14:41) Danny

Yeah, so you

moved from converging to diverging, like in the diamond. You started as a graphic designer with someone that would give you a brief, don’t ask questions, keep your mouth shut, knock out the design, show us when it’s done, and we’ll throw rocks at it and tell you how it could be better. And you moved from…

(14:47) Kirtika

Yeah.

doing that way.

and do like 20 designs

by the way, not just one and then go back to the original one.

(15:06) Danny

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

started as a web designer as well. Well, web designer, I hated it. I would do a design, and then I’d have to show it to my boss. And then it’d be like, you know, I’d have to come up with another version or take the feedback and it was all subjective. So

(15:24) Kirtika

Exactly, it was that one person going, well I don’t like it. I’m like, well you do it then. Because I’ve come up with something, you do it. was just, yeah, I didn’t like it. I also think it’s the years as well, so the way that the industry was going. And pretty much what you said, know, those UX, product, I was actually talking to someone about this only just yesterday and…

(15:28) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(15:50) Kirtika

because I started thinking about the split of UX. UX is so broad, you do a lot of stuff, right? You do discovery, you research, do product design.

I believe that there’s two roles here. There’s someone who does the research, UX discovery and then there’s those who are the builders. We love doing that part and they can carry on doing that and these people do this part. But you still work together, you still like combine. And I was like, I want to fit into that category where I’m doing all of this.

research going out there and then talk to the builders and go hey this is what we uncovered you know give you the synopsis you come up with something creative design ⁓ that will fit in the the goals of what we’re trying to achieve and that’s where i’m kind of starting to see this is probably where industry should go the reason why i say that is because if you speak to product owners

(16:49) Danny

Mmm.

(16:55) Kirtika

and UXers who do these roles, you’re kind of combined together. Although there’s some skill sets that a product owner does and some that UX, but a lot of it is crossovers. You sort of work, and this is why you start off with that team to work together rather than bring people in later on.

(17:11) Danny

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

(17:22) Kirtika

because it’s always

thinking, ⁓ let’s bring in UX later on to build and design with the… because they still don’t understand and it’s just, no, bring me in early and I’m telling you now, I can give you insights from what you could do or what you probably shouldn’t do. And that also comes with years of experience as well from having done this before. People still make the same silly mistakes and it’s just…

(17:51) Danny

Yeah,

yeah. I love it. I love it. Because what you’re what I hear you saying is like, things have changed a lot. And yet, some ways they’re like exactly the same. And it’s a different company. It’s a different team. It’s different product. It’s a different year. But it’s still the same stuff. It’s still people getting muddled up, trying to figure out what it is they’re supposed to be doing, going back to the drawing board, starting again, what are we doing? I think a lot of that’s like, like,

(17:52) Kirtika

It is funny.

Exactly.

exactly.

(18:20) Danny

I got it, I remember that I got this from Clear Left actually, know, our saviours at one time, and they would just use that word shared understanding like all the time. And I remember that was something I really took away from that was just like shared understanding. And I’ve heard another one, collective wisdom as well, which is kind of quite interesting of like, like we all have something to contribute, we all have different knowledge.

(18:30) Kirtika

Remember that.

(18:47) Danny

How can we draw on that collective wisdom? How can we create spaces in projects and in design? And that’s like good workshopping, good facilitating, right? Where that collective wisdom is drawn upon. That’s something, you know, as designers, like we should be able to

(18:51) Kirtika

Thank

(19:04) Danny

do,

(19:05) Kirtika

also been looking at a lot of research and I’m not going to say I’m a skilled expert researcher but I have foundational understanding and have been doing research for years but it’s different types of research. And whenever I speak to say product owners or other UXers or anyone like that who says this is what the problem

What’s your hypothesis and what are you trying to solve? So those things I’m just getting you to think and it’s hard because people are like, no, well, this is what I want to do. I’m like, no, no, no, let’s work backwards. What is it that you’re, you know, what do you think the problem is? And then you can go out there and…

the research and I can actually help you identify what type of research and that’s based on time as well. So some people don’t necessarily have a long time, they don’t have four to six weeks, they’ve got only a week to actually live on. I’m not saying falsify any information, it’s just in that time frame what’s the best method of doing research and how to get it. And a lot of people, and I’ve worked throughout the whole

the easier thing to do is always put a question in and like please don’t do that. You just, again, thinking back, if you think at someone who’s got an email inbox and the amount of noise that’s coming through, ignore that and just be like this is now cognitive overload, I don’t want to, you know, bother with that, etc etc. And you know, your answers may not come back 100 % truthful, it could just be easy, easy, easy, dumb, boom. So I always kind of think about like…

(20:38) Danny

Yeah.

(20:55) Kirtika

How does this, the end person who’s gonna actually do this, how does it come across for them and at what time and what…

(21:03) Danny

That’s like empathetic

thinking you’re trying to put yourself in their shoes and really try to imagine like, which I guess just gets lost, doesn’t it? Like, people could get like very consumed with the solution and get quite pulled away. I have been feeling like, also got, yeah, I’ve been feeling this like, pull in what I’m reading in like the sector and the industry, you know, about how, you know, it’s how everything’s like outcome focused at the moment and

(21:12) Kirtika

it does.

Thank ⁓

(21:33) Danny

It’s like, you see like what they say about CVs, it’s like, don’t, don’t say what your roles and responsibility were, say what the outcome was. And, and it’s this sense that, yeah, I know. I don’t really get that because I don’t, I don’t really get it. Cause it’s like, I could put like, I was at John Lewis and the conversion went up, you know, like 3%. Like, was that me that did that? Like, I managed some designers that contributed to that. And if I hadn’t have been there, like.

(21:40) Kirtika

Oh yeah! Do you want me to rewrite my CV? Come on!

the collectible please.

(22:01) Danny

maybe they would have been more stressed and wouldn’t have as good equipment and not done it as well. kind of, you know, unless you’re like a founding designer, like, I don’t really understand, like making outcomes such a big deal, you know, like, because it’s so hard to quantify. But I, my point was, was that I think the reason why things are going outcome focused in the market is because there’s a slight pullback in UX of like, you know, how they’re saying like UX is dead and all this kind of stuff.

I think that’s because they’re like, we’ve been focused on the customer too much and not enough on like business objectives and business outcomes. And they don’t care about our processes and our wireframes and all that. What they want is 5x engagement, 10x, da da da da. And so there’s been sort of like this pullback to like making UX more grounded in like business objectives. And I wonder, mean, is that something that you’re seeing or are you hearing that language or are you not?

kind of getting that kind of noise.

(23:02) Kirtika

I’m not hearing that. I can understand why that could be. So I left ⁓ e-commerce customer years ago. So I do a lot of internal researches, currently in the cloud space, at structures and all that sort of stuff. ⁓ I love that. I think actually e-commerce to converting someone to buy.

It’s just boring for me. It’s like, this is boring, this is too much. Because it’s just the same thing. You just want them to click on the button, blah blah blah. So if that’s going on in a, you know.

(23:32) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

(23:47) Kirtika

and people are not being allowed to sort of think outside of that because we’ve worked together, we worked in a space where you are not allowed to overstep. can only work within your control. Yeah, you can only work within your control and one of those designs are those of the designs. So actually, no, because there’s a lot of factors that go behind the scenes and you need to understand that then how this design is being created.

(23:59) Danny

wasn’t encouraged.

(24:14) Kirtika

So I believe there’s like two parts that people are probably not being able to be as creative or out thinkers and just cloned into doing that part. But then I’m not hearing that because I’m someone who questions everything. just, I just, I’ve always been someone who’s like look at what the consumer is doing, but also the business because at the end of the day, you can’t have.

(24:30) Danny

That’s what we get on.

(24:41) Kirtika

something without both right you can’t have a business without your consumers and you can’t have your consumers without a business so I always look at it where what is the goal for the business and what are we doing and I remember your posts and notes going in what are our business goals what are our customer goals what are these and it’s just like getting people thinking and then like what’s the time frame what’s the you know what’s the problems we’re trying to do and then I’ll go and investigate

go look need more time or this is what I’ve found out so far. But I’m always questioning everything. just and I found I’m more empowered ⁓ as someone who’s dyslexic. Whenever I do these interviews and research I always go I’m dyslexic so hope you don’t mind I’m going to record this and I’m going to write this down I’m very much a big dyslexic.

(25:27) Danny

Yeah.

Excellent.

(25:34) Kirtika

You know what I find? People share that they are, they either have some think or they have not been diagnosed. And I can also now spot in certain people. And then you just change the way that you can speak to someone or work with someone. ⁓ And it is just, But that’s the end of the skill bar.

(25:44) Danny

Yeah.

That’s really interesting.

I’m hearing like, definitely like some behaviours and ways of looking at design in terms of being curious and asking questions and also how you being like, to a degree, like vulnerable and kind of honest about, you know, what you’re working with in your own self and by sharing that with, you know, participants or, you know, with colleagues that opens up like conversations that might not always happen. And I think what I’ve

I’ve always been quite curious about is, I think you can have good designers and they exhibit a lot of the stuff that you’re talking about. But like, you’ve worked in a few places now, like, what, what do you think, what cultures make good designers, you know, like, so what, what kind of, you know, companies, you know, have, have you felt like, wow, like, I could really run here, as opposed to, I’m get back in my box.

(26:59) Kirtika

That’s an interesting question. Let me just pause and could you repeat it again as well?

(27:02) Danny

Yeah, take your time.

Yeah, so

I’m interested and I really appreciate you asking me to ask you again and to pause. I really appreciate that. I think it’s great because I just shoot from the hip and then just talk dribble sometimes.

(27:18) Kirtika

And

I’ll just go, I don’t think I answered the question because I heard something else and that’s my dyslexic brain going, brr brr brr. ⁓

(27:22) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah, no, and in this format,

I think that’s really easy to do because we’re like, we’re wearing the red lights on. And then, like, there’s like how I’m being perceived. And then there’s answering the question and it’s all happening at the same time. And it’s like a bit of a head screw. But yeah, let me ask the question again. So could you think back in your experience to different working cultures in the companies you’ve been in that have made you feel like you can do really good design work?

and you felt really supported and you felt encouraged to do the kind of things that you’re talking about, asking questions, being divergent, that kind of thing.

(28:06) Kirtika

That’s an interesting… and I think there’s several answers so I can’t answer it as one whole thing. can’t say this one company that I work for doesn’t. It’s genuinely the people that you’re around and the manager that you have, right? Because many of these people who I work with…

(28:16) Danny

Yeah, yeah.

(28:30) Kirtika

When I’ve seen good managers and I’m talking, they’re not managing people, they’re actually leaders. They’re actually going, get some training, do this, I can spot this, this, That’s where I feel like the culture, it starts from there and then team collaboration, encouraging people to upskill, encouraging people to share work, setting those sort of safe environments to do all of that.

give criticism but in a positive way where you’re learning and growing. That for me is important. Any interview that I go into, always, so as a ContraDoc, I always ask the question of what is your teen culture like? What do you think?

(29:18) Danny

Yeah, yeah, and what are you listening for?

(29:21) Kirtika

Yeah, how do you guys work together? And I’ll hear out what they’re actually saying. I was like, don’t want to, I don’t care what the pay was or anything. It was more, if I don’t feel like I’m going to be happy here for the next three months, six months, then what is the point of me joining somewhere and just kind of being a doer? I was like, I want to be…

(29:28) Danny

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

What

makes you happy as a designer? As a designer, yeah.

(29:51) Kirtika

What makes me happy?

So I can give you recent examples. What makes me happy is actually feeling empowered to get on with the work and it’s just so much of that. It’s just totally hands off and I love I hate micromanage. Don’t get me wrong. There’s some people who love to be told. ⁓

(30:05) Danny

Yeah.

and autonomy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like clarity, like here’s

your to-do list today.

(30:23) Kirtika

me I don’t work like that because my brain is so creative and then I’ll go off and do that work and I’ve never had any issues with that and nor have the people that I work with so for me it’s that empowerment of getting on and doing it because at the end of the day you’ve hired me you should trust me to do work right and that’s what I’m doing and I think that confidence comes from when I was doing the contract

(30:53) Danny

Yeah, yeah.

(30:55) Kirtika

I was like, I’m my own business. How do I want to be perceived and presented to people? Of course, I want to do my best. So I need to show them that and they hired me. And as you said, consultant, right? They’ve hired me. They want to hear the feedback. They want to know. So I felt more empowered to do that.

(31:19) Danny

Yeah, yeah, yeah, something

that’s really interesting, like I can really relate how I think contracting can really, ⁓ I think it like really matures you as a designer, like I, you know, it’s funny, like the market at the moment, it like, it doesn’t like people who have lots of experience and have done lots of things. It likes people that have done the same thing on repeat. So

(31:33) Kirtika

is confidence.

(31:46) Danny

If you were like a contractor and you hopped around and you did different stuff versus someone who was in-house who did the same thing for like five years, they’ll go for the in-house person. It’s mental. And yeah, and I’m thinking back to when I was hiring and if I saw a contractor who wanted to go perm, I was like, yeah, wicked. They’ll come in, they’ve got all the stuff, they’ll be flying, they’ll be going really quickly, you know, like, and they’ll have this like…

(31:57) Kirtika

That’s ridiculous.

you

(32:13) Danny

presentation in the way that they think and work, which is demanded of a freelancer, like more so than a permie, I think, you know, and I think the thing one of the things that I’ve, I’ve been working on a lot is someone said to me, it’s really senior broad at Clark’s actually, I did since time at Clark’s, and I could see problems everywhere, which I think

maybe as some kind of new divergency that I’m learning about. That’s another story. And I could see all these problems everywhere. was like, that’s wrong, that’s wrong, that’s wrong, that’s wrong. And I go over to her and I say like, know, ⁓ God, can I just have a minute of your time? She’s really senior, but she’s really nice to me. And she’s like, don’t put monkeys on my back. And what she was saying was like, and that’s like a nice way of saying it. What she’s saying is like, don’t bring me problems, like bring me solutions. That’s what she’s saying.

(32:59) Kirtika

I’m sorry.

Yeah. ⁓

(33:10) Danny

And

it made me think as a contractor how like, it’s not about just complaining and spotting things that are wrong. It’s like, so what’s the solution? Like, how would you solve that? Like, what do you need from them in order to solve the problem you’ve seen? Which I think as a contractor, I’ve been trying to develop that a lot more as opposed to just saying, that’s not very good. That’s not very good. It’s like, how can we make it better? Does that make sense?

(33:38) Kirtika

exactly

100 % I agree with you. Going this is a problem okay cool but what are gonna do about it? You can say it’s a problem no one’s ever gonna do anything and then you’re gonna ignore it but actually going this is a problem this is how you could do something about it and this is where I see the value of it. Oh you’ve you’ve just rephrased it a bit and you’ve gone now you’ve given someone a chunk of an idea of going hmm let’s see if we can invest time.

(33:50) Danny

Yeah.

(34:07) Kirtika

running an effort into this thing that’s rare. There’s something, my brain was like, when you were saying something, it was like, I just need to say something. That’s how I dislike some people. They do that, but I can’t. And then I was like, I’ve got to my tongue, hold my tongue, hold it. And now I’ve forgotten what I was going to say.

(34:09) Danny

Yeah, yeah.

my god, I, so I’ve written a manual of me. And ⁓ on my manual of me, there is a page and it says, things I’m trying to do better. And it says to listen. And I, I something I’m finding really difficult and I’ve been really, I’ve been exploring it with my therapist. And it’s like, it’s where like, I find if I’m listening to someone and they say something, and then it sparks an idea and I want to say it. And I worry that

(34:32) Kirtika

Yeah.

(34:57) Danny

If I wait until they finish talking, like the idea will go. And I mean, have, I found it helpful to write down while someone’s talking what it is I want to say so it doesn’t go.

(35:05) Kirtika

You also,

you might be dyslexic because I actually saw you glaze over as well. So I was like, hmm, that’s what I do. Because it could be a trigger word and I’ll go, hmm, and then connect it to something else. And the person could carry on talking and that listening part. When I spoke to a friend of mine whose neurodivision as well, has ADHD and something else, I was like, ⁓

(35:13) Danny

Yeah? Yeah, no, I-

(35:34) Kirtika

really wish I could just, you know, I wasn’t dyslexic and I could like listen and you know, etc. But why? Why do you want to do that? You you’re all very creative, you’re very… What the other person needs to do is actually understand and be a bit more empathetic and go and give you that extra time to be, you know, because that’s a different way of being and they’re a different way of being.

That’s true, why should we try and fit in and fix? And I think a lot of, so if I was to go back to UX, like when it came to work design, when it came to graphic design and stuff, I was in a box and it was just like, couldn’t really, you know, say anything or do anything. Whereas I felt a bit more like it doesn’t matter what I

because it’s not going to be stupid or perceived as stupid because that’s my job, I’m meant to be asking questions so I felt bit more empowered about it. Whereas in the classrooms or anywhere else I would not even dare to put my hand up or in meetings wouldn’t even dare to put my hand up because I’m

(36:40) Danny

Really? You wouldn’t dare to put your hand up? Really? What would you think would happen?

(36:46) Kirtika

And I also think the

culture of how it was before was kind of a, you’d be laughed at if you ask a question. might not even. Whereas now.

(36:59) Danny

Yeah. And you know

what, well, we’re, like, you know, halfway down the track in our career. And maybe we don’t feel that as much, but there must be people maybe who listening or start their career who feel that who, I mean, like I was in a big design consultancy a couple of years ago and there were people there who were like fresh out of bootcamp, like literally they done bootcamp and then they got like a graduate placement. And I was in some meetings and

were like high wire acts, real huge egos, quite aggressive kind of like posturing and pushing. And then there’s someone there in who’s on the call, you know, who’s like, it’s their first gig, they’ve got like three months experience. And I’m and I kind of was like, I don’t know what an earth they are making of this, you know, and what they feel their contribution can be in this clearly like, you know, unsafe.

(37:47) Kirtika

You

Yeah.

(37:55) Danny

environment, it is not safe to put your hand up and point something out. And so there’s that kind of, ⁓ is my role to just sort of be quiet? I worry about that. Does that make sense?

(38:09) Kirtika

I’m not a doer, I’m not a yes person. And that’s the thing I’ve learned. I will say that this is the wrong thing to do. And if they’re adamant that that’s what they want to do, I go cool, I’ve given you my professional advice, et cetera, et cetera. You do what you need to do. But yeah, don’t.

(38:13) Danny

Yeah.

Yeah, Yeah, and I think,

do you find some people here, because I call that like truth, out truth or like dropping a truth bomb or, you know, like speaking truth to power. Like that’s kind of how the terms I think of that. Like sometimes I’ll say something that is a little bit controversial because I’m pointing out that someone hasn’t really thought through the project properly or, and I try to do it in a diplomatic way, but.

sometimes it still hurts a bit, you know, and do you find like when you when you have this moments where you spot something and maybe no one’s seen it and you share it and it is a bit hard for maybe some people to hear like do you find that that’s how is that received and how do you feel when you’re saying it? Do you feel like excited or scared or like nothing like how is that experience of like I’m going to say something a bit controversial?

(39:28) Kirtika

I don’t ever think it is controversial. I just think, how did you not see this? Why can’t you see this? Am I the only one? Hello. And then they just say it. But then that could also be the neurodevice head of me just going, how did you not spot this? And it could be that. So you’re just raising it, I guess. You’re not. There is no…

(39:30) Danny

⁓ thank you, Craig.

Yeah.

Yeah.

(39:58) Kirtika

controversial. I don’t think it should ever be seen that way. You’re just going, hey, if you didn’t spot this, I spotted this, what’s happening? What’s going on? you see that? And at least that’s now raised. So if you think about it in post-it note terms, it’s on there, it’s been captured. We’re aware of it, if nothing’s ever done about it.

(39:59) Danny

Mmm. ⁓

Yeah, yeah, no you

But you feel better because you’ve at least got it out and said it, right?

(40:29) Kirtika

Yeah,

and it might not necessarily be like, yeah, we did think about it, we just not shared it and blah blah blah. Okay, cool, thank you, no problem.

(40:35) Danny

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I can really relate with that. So I’m curious, in terms of I’m hearing like you share lots of experiences about how you approach work and some principles that you work with. Like, have there been times where you you’ve gotten quite stuck, like, not really sure, like, whether it’s a design that you’re not sure how to sort of, like, solve?

(40:38) Kirtika

I think.

⁓

give you

a perfect example. This is like an interview I’m like yeah I’ve

(41:05) Danny

like yeah I’m curious because I just yeah well I just feel

like there’s always these polished case studies and thought leaders and you just don’t hear like when did it like not go right

(41:16) Kirtika

This is it. My brain’s come

back to it. Right, let me answer the other question. So why is it that UI and UX, I’m assuming, are the only roles that you need to show a portfolio? Show a portfolio.

(41:33) Danny

that you need to what? Our

short portfolio, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(41:37) Kirtika

I just think, why? Why do you need something polished that’s showing you a portfolio? Let’s have a conversation. You’re gonna give me a test. I know this. I can give you how I think about things and what my process is. But it’s going back to your point of what did you do? Oh, the RKPI was this and we…

knocked it out in the park and it’s just, you know, we did great, it’s like cool, but actually what are the things that could go wrong, went wrong, how you kind of work through that process. When you’re talking in interviews, I feel like that’s more important than just showing here’s a picture or I don’t know, this is another case, da da. When you’re sending that through to someone, right, that end person is just looking at this, but what is actually going on in their head.

Why don’t we just talk? Like have a conversation. I find that much easier than just contracting interviews are so much easier than a permit to. I’m like, come on, stop it. Five interviews before you go, okay, do you know what? You are the one, thanks. You could have found this out.

(42:36) Danny

Totally.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I find that

I’ve had the same experience like yeah, contract interviews are like half an hour, you know, and the thing is, is like, yeah, yeah.

(42:56) Kirtika

Think about the context. They don’t have time to waste.

If they don’t make a decision quick, you’re then gone to another person. Whereas with permanent, it’s like you could go off with another person, but now you’re invested in your, you know, this is the interview stages. We need to know if this is perfect, perfect fit. You’re never gonna know that. Someone could actually be a comedian, show you something in that five stage interview, giving you the job.

(43:05) Danny

Yeah.

(43:23) Kirtika

they’ve shown you the best version of themselves but actually when they’re actually doing the role itself they’re not great at it, they’re not capable at it what are you going to do then? ⁓ this is my brain always thinking about in that way and going why do you why do people have to do this many? it’s like you’re wasting your time

(43:41) Danny

It’s,

it’s broken. Yeah, it’s definitely broken. And something that I’ve noticed about your ⁓ career is that you, on a few occasions have contracted somewhere and then gone perm or sometimes been perm and then contracted for the same client, which I’ve often thought like, isn’t that like the solution to this interview process is and I’ve actually said that ⁓ a gig that I might be starting soon is that I just said to them like,

they had some perm rolls going and contracts said look can I just contract for you for a bit we can get to know each other and like maybe maybe I’ll go perm at the end of it you know or maybe you don’t want me to go perm but like at least like that’s the best interview really because then you’ll get to work with me for six months you know and like I just kind of feel like surely that’s the best way to rather than portfolio reviews and stuff and if you kind of have a rough sense that someone’s right is a bit like a trial period really but paid

(44:37) Kirtika

That’s exactly it. It’s, ⁓

(44:38) Danny

Yeah.

(44:39) Kirtika

Yeah, of course. But that’s exactly… Isn’t that the whole… What is it? Temporary? Contract? Three months? What’s it called? What’s that word? Where they… Yeah.

(44:49) Danny

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of thing.

What, like a trial? you mean?

Because I think as a freelancer and someone like yourself as well, who’s jumped between freelance and perm, you’re like, I know this is gonna sound really weird, but like, you’re ready to be fired at any minute. And what I mean by that is like, if you got fired tomorrow in your perm job, your portfolio is ready to go, your CV is ready to go, like you know how to do freelancing. And they say like, perm’s safe, perm’s not safer right now. People are getting fired all the time.

(45:14) Kirtika

That’s the end of it.

How many smell up? ⁓

It was

never safe. didn’t, I never understood that and I, I never understood it. I was like, why do think your job is safe? I’ve been here for 20, no, no. You, you, you are, you don’t own the company. Someone could come in and go, do you know what? We don’t need you anymore when you’re out. What do you do then? And I think maybe because,

(45:29) Danny

It’s an illusion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(45:51) Kirtika

And I know a lot of people say they’re comfortable, blah, blah, but I don’t think it’s that. I think it’s the, you know, the change.

(45:59) Danny

Psychological, yeah, yeah, your your identities, right? Like, and I think that’s another aspect of going freelance and perm a lot is that psychologically, like, you kind of like not wrapped up in the identity of your job in the same way that someone who’s perm for like 20 years, 10, 15 years, like them losing their jobs, like, that’s like up there with getting divorced, you know, whereas like freelance is kind of like

(46:00) Kirtika

Yeah.

(46:22) Danny

you know, hard for a weekend maybe, and then, you know, you just, you’re on it again. And I think in the market as it is today, like, that’s probably a more resilient way to be as a, you know, practice designer.

(46:35) Kirtika

I mean it could be another

skill set so I am strategic and…

tell you this takes over my personal life as well so it’s not a great skill to have all the time but I just see too much from it and it’s if this happens what do I do next and I’m planning all of that out so it’s like okay if I was to lose my job do I then okay this is what I can do this is I’m ready and then I don’t think ⁓

(46:46) Danny

You see too much.

Yeah

(47:07) Kirtika

a lot of people have different skill sets so having that is unless it happens then you kind of think on your feet or you’re just going okay right what’s just happened what do do next?

(47:18) Danny

Yeah, yeah.

(47:20) Kirtika

So yeah.

(47:22) Danny

We’re almost running to a close and I want to make sure that because you said you needed to finish on time. So I want to make sure we do that. I just had a couple of very like closing questions I wanted to ask you. What are you most proud of that you’ve worked on?

That could be anything could be your own work like doesn’t gallery work anything.

(47:47) Kirtika

Okay yeah so then it would be that because I…

I’ve always been creative, I was very good at art, ⁓ but I wasn’t encouraged to pursue that path because the teachers back then would be like, there’s no money.

So I went down the graphic design, the web design group, and that brought me to the where I can be in position where I was able to afford to buy house and do all of these things. But then I thought, if I don’t try, I will never know. And I will always be that person that says things but never does it. And I didn’t want to be that person because I was like, that’s just eating up away at me.

(48:32) Danny

Yeah.

(48:38) Kirtika

Okay, let me try. What’s the worst that can happen? And I always say, what’s the worst that can happen? So I started drawing again and designing and stuff and I thought, let me just book in an exhibition. So I did and then I just put my work and I absolutely hate.

(48:53) Danny

Yeah.

(48:58) Kirtika

talking about my work or showing it. So I would just wanted to, yeah, but then the amount of people that different things they were just talking. I’ve done three exhibitions. And the third one, had younger people who wanted to do the same thing. And they go, don’t know what it was. said, listen, just do it. Just fucking do it.

(49:00) Danny

Really?

(49:20) Kirtika

Those thoughts are the thoughts that are going to stop you from doing it. No matter what, just do it. Just go, I’m going to do it and just do it. Don’t think about it because when you start thinking about it, you start, I’m a perfectionist and I hate it. Because it just then it goes, it needs to be perfect for you to get. No, if I can just go, this is the date, this is what I’m going to work to and this is what I’m going to do and I’ll do it. So I’m very proud of what you’ve.

(49:23) Danny

Love it.

Amazing. Yeah. I think that’s a great note to finish on. Yeah, I love it. And is there a link that we can see your gallery work on or something? Maybe you can share that with me. can put it in post if you want to share that. That might be interesting.

(49:51) Kirtika

want to do more.

It’s on Instagram,

I don’t really update it because I don’t really like doing socials as much as I do. But yeah, can share it. And currently, and I know if this goes live I’m going to have to do it, continue with it, but I’m learning how to do tattooing so I’m just…

(50:11) Danny

Okay, well if you want to share it, I’ll put a link up and perhaps people can have a look at that.

Really? Amazing!

That’s so cool!

(50:30) Kirtika

Because I’ve just thought, I’ve done ring making, I’ve done various other things, it’s like, let me just see where I find joy. And I do find joy in kind of making things and designing things.

(50:44) Danny

Awesome. That’s such a cool thing. Yeah, tattooing. I love it. That’s great. Cool. Well, perhaps we will see some tattoo designs in the near future. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ Nice one. Kurti, thank you so much. Thanks for coming. Thanks for trusting me to be on the Deeply Human podcast. yeah, it’s been great. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. And hopefully other people will find it interesting, amusing, and helpful. That’s what we want.

(50:48) Kirtika

you

I’m not doing a little tattoo on you.

Yeah,

this has been nice. I like that it’s naturally just me you having a conversation. And I’ve ⁓ basically forgotten what we were chatting about. That’s my cognitive brain.

(51:25) Danny

Yeah, that’s that was what I wanted.

I wanted us to go into that world. So thank you so much. And I hope you have an awesome day. Awesome.

(51:28) Kirtika

Thank you.